To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

Domestic abuse can impact children even in the womb - so assuming you were the victim, that could have impacted her, prison sentence aside.

I wonder if you have been able to access trauma informed specialist support?

Must have been less than 6 years if she has a 12 year old? Let's assume she was with her partner for 2 years before having a child - then that was moving on after 2 years. No shade on that, but you're spreading misinformation.

Trauma before birth from the domestic abuse and the loss of her dad has an impact on a child's brain development, executive functioning and capacity to regulate their feelings and behaviour. One key part of this is the difference between feeling guilt and feeling shame. Many children who have experienced trauma feel shame (I am bad) when 'told off' or corrected, however gently its done instead of guilt (I made a bad choice or my behaviour wasn't good). Shame is such a very toxic emotion that evokes a strong reaction. I wonder if this is what is happening for your daughter when she feels told off? Beacon House website has lots of information that might be useful if you wanted to find out more and see if this could help as an explanation.

She's 17. Is she wanting to go away with friends e.g. festivals?? If so I'd be tempted to offer her some monies so she can do what she wants. If she wants to come with you then get her planning it with you. If she wants to go with friends - well she's 17 and family are just so annoying...

I do agree with others, it would be a error to exclude her from the holiday - as it will add to everything you have already described.

Of course you have a right to move on in your life but that might not change the impact on this daughter of what she sees as perhaps loss and not belonging.

If you exclude her from the holiday you are likely to connect to her innermost fears that you will eventually leave her as everyone else seems to have in life.

17 is still very young, there is every chance that she will find her way in life and you will have a very different relationship. That does not mean you have to accept inappropriate behaviour and if you can talk about this weekend at a less emotive opportunity, then perhaps you could agree some basic rules of engagement that mean if things are getting hot you take time out.

Your daughters responses are probably much more deep seated that whatever the presenting issue suggests. If you can, try not to reduce her complex emotions to 'not getting her way' or 'having mental health issues' as this is likely to escalate the situation further as fundamentally its telling someone who is already quite confused about their own emotional responses, that no one around them understands them either.

She will have to work through this - sometimes she will need you to be part of that and some of it she will have to do herself. Its part of her making sense of what has happened. I would seek advice on how to share information that has been kept from her. That can be quite upsetting, that on top of everything else there are secrets that have been kept. It can leave a person who is struggling, feeling even more like the ground underfoot can be upended at any moment.

Your daughter may also be feeling quite anxious about the big holiday - the fact that she is looking forward to it so much, suggests she too has high expectations - that's a lot of pressure. If you can hold your nerve and just tell yourself you will get there with all your children, I am sure you can make it happen.

My 16yr old niece totally ruined a holiday with very similar behavior. Her parents are together and she is an only child with no MH problems or big issues going on at the time.

That was almost 10yrs ago now and she still brings it up now and then saying she can't believe how awful she behaved as a teen.

It happens!

Can I ask if you daughter has episodes like this with her grandparents and if its just you that she shouts at when you are out with your partner and her siblings?

I totally understand that it was her choice to go to her grandparents and that you all work together, and to be honest teenagers go through phases anyway. I just wonder if she feels sidelined (by her own actions) , as sometimes at that age we take actions and fail to see the inevitable repercussions and no matter how much you may try to treat her like the rest of your children, she feels alienated/misplaced. I'm not saying you make her feel like this, just she may subconsciously feel like this and when you go out as a family, this feeling of you not validating her importance, surfaces.

I know I am not explaining this well, my circumstances were different but did have some similarities, maybe I am projecting but my Dad moved on and had another family and when I went out with him and his new family, I felt like I didn't belong and that I, above all others should feel I belonged as I was real, first child. I felt replaced. I could see his happy family, and I wanted to be part of it, I loved the idea of it (like she looked forward to the holiday) but the reality was different. Its weird to explain but its about knowing you are the centre of that one persons universe that validates you. Its in her/my head, not yours, we tend to see the unintentional slights and then something seemingly minor makes us just explode over nothing.

I didn't understand those feelings myself and it took me a while to realise they manifested themselves around my Dad, I felt he had moved on but had somehow left me behind and I was upset that I didn't feel part of it...the reality was that I was the one holding myself back and not them denying me. If you can walk away...so can I....see how you like it then....type thing.

I needed help, to understand my feelings and what made me feel that way and it was only when I got that help that I was able to stop self sabotaging. Having said that, my Dad had to change to actively address my insecurities..

Don't give up on her, please don't bar her from the family holiday or threaten to do so as this will feed into her insecurities, whatever the cause. Yes 17 is getting to the far end of the time you want to holiday with your younger siblings and that is why you need to make this last effort with her.

I holidayed with my parents until my late teens and in fact next week we are away with my mum, my adult daughters and families. I think not asking her will alienate her further and your relationship may not recover but I can understand why you think things will be easier without her there.

A frank conversation about boundaries maybe. Why did you ask her to get in the car? Does she not like being told what to do? Maybe you have an agreement that while on holiday you don't all have to do the same things together all the time. We have learnt that especially with four different generations there has to be a degree of flexibility on all sides and pick your battles. If you are not used to being together for an extended period of time having space from each other while on holiday is a good thing. So if she wants to do something and you want her to do something else maybe think whether it is crucial that she come with you on a day out somewhere or whatever. Teenagers can be testing. I went through difficult times with my eldest DD at the same age but now in her 30s we get on fine with a bit of give and take on both sides.

It was a misunderstanding. OP says it was 6 years later she had a baby. Dd had moved in with DGPs by then.

Spreading misinformation? Drama llama much.

Half of you lot just came in here for a bitch session, I see.

OP I don't have advice but it must be hard. Remember that some 16-18 years olds can be tricky.

Perhaps if you talk to her she may prefer not to come anyway, or maybe you can work something out? A three way conversation might even be worthwhile, with an intermediary, so you can both say what you feel. Relate is good for this.

Totally agree.

One thing that seems missing in this is Your DP. He as been in her life for a long time. What's their relationship like?

I'm sure the poor OP's head is spinning from all the shit on this thread.

Everyone else gets on well and functions as a happy family

This is very revealing.

While I appreciate you've done your best to be a good mum to both her and your other children (and I'm sure you have been, in many ways), from experience I suspect her view will be very different.

I agree with others that she feels abandoned and it strikes me that she's been put into the role of family scapegoat. That instead of fully addressing her emotional needs that have led to this behaviour, she's been labelled hard work and badly behaved.

I'm sure at this point you're bristling and feeling offended and I'm equally sure you did your very best to meet her needs and believe you have bent over backwards, I'm not actually criticising you. But something has gone wrong along the way and unless you're prepared to accept that you may have made mistakes or could have done things differently then you'll never make progress.

I also wonder how many of her sudden outbursts come on the back of subtle things which may be normal to others but that needle and upset her. Some of these could be things she's having a total overreaction to, but such overreaction happen because they're in response to things which trigger deeper painful feelings.

People - especially teenagers - lash out when they're struggling with bigger emotions. Pain, hurt, feelings of abandonment or unfairness, of feeling unseen or unheard...I suspect there's a lot going on here.

And if you react as strongly towards her at any hint that you may - unintentionally or not - bear some responsibility for her behaviour as you have to people here then I'm really not surprised she lashes out the way she does. Its the only she can communicate because every other route has been shut down for her.

Counselling for both of you together is a good idea.

Another one who agrees with WhatADayToHaveEyes.

Personally l think as she has had your support and counselling, and has loving grandparents as a choice to go to, she has hardly been ignored.
She needs to know it is not acceptable to spout trans hate, or call you unacceptable names just because she doesn't get her way!
Imagine she does not learn that lesson now, will she shout and swear at her future boss when she is told something?
Will she shout and swear at her future boyfriends too?
What about her friends?
If she doesn't learn people will not accept that behaviour she may end up very lonely. and unemployable.
I too think more therapy is a very good idea.

Talk to her.
Take her out for lunch, tell her you love her and want her to come on holiday but are worried that it won't be enjoyable for either of you.
Tell her how much her verbal abuse has upset you and LISTEN if she counters this.
Ask her what she thinks you both need to do to ensure that there isn't a repeat of this weekend's behaviour.

You have both been through a lot but she is still a child.

Check out https://capafirstresponse.org/ for amazing support for aggression from kids, it’s very common. She’s a child still and needs you

17 year olds can be utter arseholes, but they aren’t adults thus being an arsehole (short of actually criminal behaviour) isn’t a reason to exclude her from a family holiday. And no your relationship probably wouldn’t recover. Sorry.

She’s nearly an adult though so I would take her out for coffee and say you are really sorry she is so unhappy and you want to help, but her behaviour on the weekend away was way way out of line, and if she does this on holiday XY loss of privileges will be the result,

A more thoughtful response than mine, so this too

She lost her dad, you got pregnant, she acted out and got shipped to her grandparents.

I really hate when people do this ridiculous summarize it in 2 sentences and act like they have it all figured out like there's no nuances and other complications.

You write it like she got pregnant the next week after her father died and really shopped to grandparents????

Welldone Dr Phil.

No it's completely the norm with all the teens I know.

I hate it too. People just let their imagination run riot then post as if their wee fantasy were fact and they've got it sussed.
The arrogance of those who know a little then make up the rest. Fucking hell.

Except I also asked a question, so didn't have it all figured out, did I?

All that happening within a couple of years to a vulnerable teen is massive.

Obviously you just wanted to use your super witty Dr Phil jibe, glad I gave you the chance, and you enjoyed it. I'm sure he would tell you that if you hate a particular kind of post you could just not read it though.

Do her GP give her her own way for an easier life? When there's 2 younger children to consider things won't always go her way. Does she have a job or still in education? 17 is a bit old to be behaving like that unless she's Neuro Diverse.