To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

Have caught up a bit with the thread.
Your poor daughter 😞

This goes much deeper than just an issue regarding a family holiday. She's your daughter! If she's going to spoil the holiday, then by all means dont take her, but she certainly needs some proper help and support regardless of the holiday decision.
Maybe something 1 on 1 so she doesn't feel so replaced?

I can empathise OP as the last family holiday we went on my 17 year old was a complete nightmare. Afterwards I vowed never to go on holiday with her again as it was so awful. The difference is that we just won't go on holiday again at all until the children have left home, there is no way I would book a holiday and exclude her- it would destroy her.
My daughter also has trauma and the change on holiday is just too much for her to cope with. Please recognise there is pain somewhere that is causing this behaviour.

I've read and re-read your posts, @Mama1209, and I'm not sure there is a perfect solution.

If you don't take your DD on holiday, you'll push her further away from you.

If your DD comes on holiday, chance are, she'll ruin it for everyone else, and she's not the only person you have to think about.

But I think that's the crux of the problem - you have two other children of your own and one stepchild, plus a husband. You're never going to be able to give her all of you because you chose to widen your family unit from what was at one point, just the two of you, to six people. You have a good relationship with them all, so you've increased the amount of love you receive. This is the opposite to her story. All of these people have come along and taken more and more of her mum away from her. She only has one parent left and she hasn't felt like she's had enough of that parent for a very long time.

Being a teen is pretty miserable at the best of times, but when you factor in all the other stuff, I bet she's lonely as hell and kicking off for a reaction, just to check whether anyone still cares she exists. I wonder if she actually wanted to stay with her grandparents when she first moved there or if she was secretly hoping you would fight for her.

I'm not saying you're unreasonable to have moved on and to have sought out happiness after a horrible relationship involving DV, but your DD will have experienced everything very differently to you. You've made a lot of changes, big changes, and none of those were within her control. Running off to her grandparents seems to be the only big thing she's been able to do for herself and by herself since you and her father separated. I'm sure you thought you were doing the best thing by her by letting her make that choice, but I wonder what she actually wanted you to do.

In an ideal world, you'd be able to have a grown up conversation with your DD to discuss what you both need to do to repair your relationship, including perhaps her (and you) skipping this holiday and the two of you doing something together instead. In reality, I think she's hurting too much for that to happen without any professional help mediating that.

I honestly think therapy is needed for both of you individually and together. You've both been through so much, and I think if you could both see each other's points of views better, you could have a much better relationship. The trouble with trauma is it can come out in ways we don't notice or expect and there's no timeline on dealing with it.

You both need some support. You're asking what to do, so presumably you still want a relationship with your DD. The fact that she wants to go on this holiday of doom despite being angry all the time suggests that she still wants a relationship with you. If you both want to fix this, it will be fixable. Look into therapy again. It's not a case of you went once, you finished it, and you're all better. With trauma, there are times in your life when things resurface and you need more help than others.

I've only read your replies OP, and from them it's clear as day that you refuse to accept any blame in your daughters behaviour. Her problems stem from the parenting she received from you, the trauma of her dad dying, you bringing a new man into her home, you having more kids, and her being moved to her grandparents (which you say you didn't do but also didn't stop which is basically the same thing) when those kids were born. You can keep pretending you didn't replace her with your new family, and that you tried your best to mother her, but it's clear to everyone that thats not true. None of us are making up stories, which you keep accusing people of doing, we are all just going off on what you have written. Stop worrying about going on holiday and use the money on family therapy instead. Surely all your kids having happy and healthy relationships with each other is more important that any holiday?

OP, I’m sorry I have no advice to give on your situation but reading some of the awful replies I just wanted to send you some love. I am one of 4 girls, the eldest, growing up the 3rd sister was an absolute nightmare, you were constantly treading on eggshells if she didn’t have her own way, she was rude, nasty and difficult 80% of the time and the absolute best the other 20. She ended up moving out from moms, to dads, to grandmas, to both aunties, to moms cousins and then back home before finding her own feet at 18. She’s an adult now, mom herself and she’s amazing but still has her moments. I’m telling you this because the other 3 of us weren’t like this and we all had the same upbringing, no trauma, so for everyone in the comments blaming you, please don’t listen. Sending you hugs x

I mean, it’s not rocket science is it? Her dad died. You had more children. She feels pushed out and replaced and is bereaved. She’s lost. She’s really fucking angry. And you’re one person who ‘has’ to take it. You’re supposed to be able to withstand her rage and pain, which is coming out as abuse.

I’m not sure what would happen if you cemented her fears and feelings by actually excluding her.

Joining the family holiday is a privilege not a right. If she cannot behave for a weekend, then she’s lost that privilege. She’s 17, she lives elsewhere. It’s a lot of money to spend to risk one person ruining it.

Your attitude is bizarre. Who are you to say the OP should have terminated a wanted pregnancy?!!

Age is irrelevant. You tell her she was absolutely dreadful on your recent holiday and won't be coming on the next one!

I have a sister born when I was 15 and I’m appalled that anyone can claim the attention is all baby focused when it really isn’t. You budge up and make room for a new addition to the family. If anything we were treated more grown up and had more freedom.

Not all teens want to be Molly coddled.

Could you also try engaging your brain and have a bit of empathy???!

The OP's DD is not the only one traumatised by past experience and nasty little comments like yours are the antithesis of helpful!

Repeat your last sentence back to yourself, inserting 'person' for "parent"!!! Nasty and unhelpful!

Is there anything she'd enjoy doing instead? Eg staying at grandparents and having a friend to stay, having a few takeaways or film nights or something? If grandparents are willing!

If she actively wants to come on holiday, that's more difficult

A termination should only be the woman’s choice. Certainly a stupid thing to recommend when a child is here.

Im sure the op asked about a holiday not for a load of people who think they have a missed occupation in child mental health to give their ridiculous assumptions. Which most have you have got wrong time and time again!

Not acceptable behaviour from a 17 year old whatever the reasons. I wouldn’t include her on the next holiday unless her behaviour drastically improves and would make that clear. I was holidaying with my friends by 17 definitely not too old to not be included.

This - what part of the above is not true? You may not have had any intent to hurt your daughter but she is clearly hurting and lashing out. I think the frank and honest chat with her about the holiday and your concerns, and offering to go away just you and her, would be the best option.

OP - I don’t know how much has been discussed about her dad in therapy, and perhaps this ground has already been covered, but as you’ve said she doesn’t know about the prison spell…

Am wondering whether now she is nearing adulthood, you need to have quite an honest conversation (perhaps with therapist) about your relationship with her dad. As a mum in a DV situation it’s natural to want to protect small children from the truth, not demonize a father they may well continue to see regularly etc. But when you throw his death into the mix and the kind of language she is using with you (slag etc) it suggests to me that there a deep issue here with her feelings around her dad and you, the fact you have a happier life now and he was rejected by you and then died - there’s all kinds of narratives someone could spin emotionally with that info, that aren’t necessarily a fair reflection of the situation but would create blow back on you.

My best advice is to explore this area (if not done in detail already) and try to have an adult conversation with her about your own experiences in your relationships… get some outside advice about how to handle it. I don’t mean dump on her about the DV and talk trash about her dad, I mean try to give her a window into your journey staying focused on your personal experience. Light touch on her dad’s issues, but focus on how the relationship affected you, what’s different in your current relationship. How important it was to you tot ale her into consideration when you started your relationship etc etc.

Sounds to me like she has an idealized image of her dad and can’t square her feelings for him with being ‘kind’ to you somehow. That her grief has turned into resentment to you, and that perhaps with more understanding of you over time she might find a more useful way to deal with all her feelings. Essentially perhaps try to be more vulnerable and honest and not present the “I’m a great mum” face to her, but admit your own struggles and failings (we all have them!) It’s hard to be imperfect when your role model seems to always get it ‘right’.

OP, ignore the martyrs, a 17yo who tells you ‘Shut the fuck up you fucking slag’ should not be rewarded with a holiday.

Tell her she will not be coming due to her behaviour but that if she shows you the respect you’re due as a human being then you will take her away for a weekend just the two of you.

Bloody hell, OP moved on after SIX years. What did you want her to do, do sati by throwing herself on her abusive ex’s funeral pyre at the crematorium?

You have a good relationship with them all, so you've increased the amount of love you receive. This is the opposite to her story. All of these people have come along and taken more and more of her mum away from her. She only has one parent left and she hasn't felt like she's had enough of that parent for a very long time.

i think this is very insightful

You sound like you've tried a lot OP. Don't let those projecting make you feel like you're not a good mother.

Being a good mother doesn't mean having perfect children.

Your DD has gone through losing her dad, like many other kids.
Some kids take longer than others to heal, which you wouldn't have foreseen.
Even if you had, you were already seperated from her dad and with other kids. She's part of that family too but can't have her own way all the time.

People acting like being remarried is a new thing is bizarre.

What was OP meant to do when her husband died?
She had counselling with her daughter, still welcome home when she chooses and included in family holidays.
You haven't abandoned her, her acting out could be more teenage related than anything else.
I know I was a terror to my mum despite her always being there for me, and we are fine now.

As others have said OP have a talk about the upcoming holiday. Let her know this is her last chance and if she doesn't behave, she won't be coming on the next one.
Or ask her if she's sure she wants to come as she won't have her own way and you won't put up with her spoiling it for her half-siblings.

Coming on here for helps shows you want to do the right thing as what you've tried hasn't worked.

Good luck. Take some consolation from pp who were teenage terrors too but have turned it around.

How difficult for both her and you.

Do you ever get any time alone together to do stuff? What would happen for example if you went away to a different place for a weekend? Would she still be difficult? Or would the lack of others calm her a bit?

I've not rtft, so this may have been answered, but I had the impression your recent weekend break wasn't just you two.

Someone in the thread suggested that she go on the holiday but have a friend come as well. I thought that was a good suggestion. Your daughter may be less focussed on externalising her difficulties in the form of swearing at you, melting down etc so it would be less intense.

It’s obvious to some of us here from what you have written that she has a form of trauma through the accumulation of difficult events in her life. I would also hazard a guess that she is convinced that you do not love her in the same way as the others in the family, particularly her half siblings. You say you have not told her about her dad being in prison but it’s likely she has already picked up that he wasn’t a good person through other cues, such as him not being discussed very often in the form of warm past memories. She will possibly have projected that to herself as his daughter and possibly considers herself a reminder of a man who was not good to you. And she may have made up stuff in her mind to fill in the gaps of what she doesn’t know.

In your next family therapy I would tell her everything.

17 is a difficult age even without complex life events in the mix. Things do eventually settle and come good especially as maturity sets in. My own daughter looks back now and says she was such a brat in her teen years. I do think while that happens it’s best to avoid an overt looking exclusion like going on a happy family holiday without her.

I wouldn't exclude her op. My mum did something similar. My 3 siblings all invited to her 50th birthday holiday. That killed any relationship between us. She complains to my siblings now that we have no relationship.

This, you you set your daughter up for a lifetime of trauma.