To exclude one child from family holiday

[Mama1209]

I have a strained relationship with my eldest daughter. She basically lives with her grandparents. I try my hardest to make her feel loved, wanted & included. We have booked a summer holiday abroad this year. 6 of us in total so it’s not cheap. We have just been on a weekend break and she was a nightmare! Shouting and swearing calling me names in public etc. I don’t get it because she was really looking forward to it. It’s as soon as she doesn’t get her own way she kicks off. Now me and my husband will work hard all year to pay for this summer holiday and I don’t want her to ruin it for us and the other kids! AIBU to cancel her off? I feel like she would never forgive me and it would ruin any chance of building a stronger relationship so I’m torn!

Wtf 😂

Very old? They're still a child. Mind are 17 and 19 and can't wait to come away with us in the summer

One of my half sisters behaved like this as a teenager after quite a similar though in some ways even worse start in life. I thought she was awful for years because that was her role in the family. I think my mother did her best and mostly a decent job in v difficult circs with the rest of us, and despite her own trauma, but I think she really let this particular sister down. I think my mother projected a lot of her undigested fear, grief and anger onto her without realising that's what she was doing.

As her mother you do need show she is fully loved and that will never ever change but it’s also very important for her to see that you don’t have to accept abuse while loving her too. She needs to understand that yes, she has had a tough time but that doesn’t mean she is entitled to hurt you.

I think more therapy is a great idea.

I'd be having a quiet word with her and telling her due to her bad behaviour on the weekend away and setting such a bad example to your younger DC she can't come on this family holiday but you will offer her a weekend break with just the two of you later in the year.

It doesn’t matter if it was only a few weeks and she was a baby

Do you honestly not comprehend how trauma works?

It sounds really difficult OP. Sorry you’re having such a rough time.

My DC haven’t experienced any trauma and yesterday I was secretly thinking I’d never take the sullen, ungrateful brats on holiday ever again!

i was a nightmare teenager to my mother. The truth was i was traumatised. Had been abused and was very angry, and in an unconscious way I blamed my mother. Even though she was very supportive when I told her and knew nothing about what was happening.

your DD has had some awful childhood experiences. Abusive father/ domestic violence and then his death. This wasn’t your fault, but it sounds like you’ve made some mistakes. Please don’t take that the wrong way. You’ve had no training for this! I just think you might benefit from some family counselling and/or expert advice. Parenting isn’t easy at the best of times, but you also have to be a therapist for a child who has been through a lot.

I sense that you probably need to lean in to her behaviour rather than push her away. I think she might be testing you- acting up may be her way of getting your time and attention. I was like that with my lovely mum- I took great delight in making her cry and was really nasty, but o also wanted her to hug me and not give up on me.

but I don’t blame you for not wanting to take her on holiday!

I would have a good chat with her and still take her if she wants to go. However I would make it very clear that if she tantrums/misbehaves on this holiday that it will be the last one she comes on. (After all she is 17 and should know how to behave).

Otherwise what will change her behaviour? She needs consequences to her bad behaviour. Why should you or other family members suffer because she wants her own way all the time?

I wonder if you were too scared to enforce boundaries before and so she hasn’t learnt perhaps?

Good luck as it sounds tough.

On point 4, honestly if I had a child who was struggling and needed me I’d be terminating that pregnancy asap to focus on my existing children. Not going forwards with something that would mean I’m less available to them

I think I would find a way to put it in her court so that it is essentially her decision. I would be plain spoken about your worries and frame it as she is a smart capable young woman so able to understand and have an open conversation regarding.

I would tell her what type of engagement and behaviour (be behaviour specific) you need to see from her in the lead up to this trip that would inform you that she is ready to be in this type of family-style vacation and be healthy for herself and others around her. Get her ideas on how that information could be gathered and what she thinks the signs of readiness would be. I would even write them down together and provide her a copy so there was absolute clarity on what you would both consider no-go behaviours. Try to get her ideas so it is not a lecture but something shared.

Then lay out the chance for her to determine what she wants to do and if these are behavioural expectations she feels she can manage. If they aren't that is her choice.

If she can't come to dinner or go on weekend day trips or do anything else with the family in the lead up in a way that is positive than no, I wouldn't bring her - but she would know why and in advance and she would know it was on her. I would aim to be compassionate and caring but firm in my expectations.

What a tough situation - I really feel for you OP. These are just my ideas

And when the second child was traumatised because mum broke up a family unit to focus on its older sibling as a single parent…. What then??

I respect the fact that people come from all types of different life journeys. Where I come from, a 17 yo is still very much a child and very much a part of the family and certainly not "too old" to holiday with parents.

17 is very old to be holidaying with parents

I do find this a very odd generalization - I know lots (lots) of people who have never stopped holidaying with their parents.

I am 45 and mine are coming on vacation with us in July

Teens are weird generally, and unfortunately yours has some considerable trauma and a lot of big feelings to deal with at a time when she's too young to have the skills needed for that.

You're right that you were entitled to move on, but in doing so you've added some things into the mix that are hard for your DD.
When she started spending more time at grandparents and kicking off when you were pregnant, it was an attention thing. I'd guess that what she wanted was for you to 'fight for her,' to tell her she couldn't go there because you wanted her at home and you missed her. It may not make sense to you as an adult, but things are very different when you're 14.

And now, you're trying to be a mum to all your children and while blended families can work, your DD is watching her siblings enjoy a good relationship with their mum and dad, together, and that can stir up all kinds of jealous feelings - and they manifest themselves into angry outbursts and being a PITA.
Again, not rational or even your fault, but at the same time you can't really blame her.

How much does she know about her dad? Does she know he was abusive? Because knowing that makes up part of your dna is hard.

My guess is that she feels 'outside' of the family rather than in it. Her siblings, you and your DH are a family and she's on the outside, desperately wanting to be part of it but having no idea how to make that happen with all the feelings she's dealing with.

To address this, I would start with the basics. Have a talk with her in which you make it clear that you like and love her as a person. You miss her, you want her in your house and on the holiday. Be specific about why you love her, what her good points are.

Then deal with the behaviour. It's separate to who she is (the classic "I love you but I don't like your actions") and set out some family ground rules.
This should go some way to letting her know what you expect, but it also brings her into the family, because the rules apply to you, your DH and all your children. Together.

When did I say to separate?

having a newborn takes attention away from existing children

that's a fact

At a time where her eldest needed her the most the OP decided to do something that meant even less time for her DD.

OP I so feel for you especially with the callous and unnecessary remarks from people on here! Jeez - I find this forum so bloody hateful at at times. You asked for some advice and sadly some people are so quick to blame and be vile especially when they have a tiny snippet of facts.
My advice fwiw would be to have an adult conversation with your daughter as a few pps have already mentioned. As she is 17, she is almost old enough really to go away with her own friends. Perhaps she would rather do this? Could you possibly contribute to something that she wants to do with her friends, maybe once she turns 18? Or maybe a weekend away shopping with you somewhere if that's what she wants. She must be living with trauma from the loss of her Dad and what must have been an unsettling time for her as a youngster due to her Father's behaviours. But she is 17 and I would expect her to behave reasonably or face the consequences, which may be that she doesn't get invited again. I do hope you can resolve something OP for you and for her. Sending hugs x

I think you sound like a lovely loving mother with a very difficult situation , teenagers can be bloody hard work !
Pay no attention to the know it all know nothings making assumptions and accusations when all you have done is ask the advice from other mothers who may have a bit of experience from having had similar situations.
I hope things work out for all of you.

There are some very nasty posters on this thread 🫤. I wouldn't listen to them.

OP, it's a difficult situatuation. I don't think you can leave her out though. You either have to include her, do something different or maybe bribe her not to come by giving her the cash equivalent to go away with her pals. She might prefer that.

No way would I be taking her on holiday.

No yanbu. At 17 if she can't be trusted not to kick off and spoil it for everyone else then she doesn't come.

She chose to live there and often chooses to come back when she falls out with her grand parents

You LET your 14 year old move out and live with other family members.

That's unforgivable op. No wonder she's messed up. She must feel totally pushed out and unwanted.

I have a 14 year old and hell would freeze over before I allowed him to go live elsewhere because WE are his immediate family and not the grandparents or anyone else. Which is what I'd be telling him if he came to me with his 'choice' of moving out at 14!

I think you should tell her that unless you get a sincere apology for swearing at you, she's not coming on the holiday.

How was she supposed to know that her DD would continue to struggle though?

Its quite normal for teenagers to be a bit upset about further pregnancies. Mostly they come around to the idea. Luckily most people understand that rather then making a serious decision around a termination.

I wonder how many people on MN would have been telling OP not to terminate and let a teenager determine the whole families futures?

She’s a teen. Teens can be notoriously difficult and awful. My teen dd was a nightmare, but now a few years later, totally different. So hang on in there. I don’t know how easy it would be for you to get a weekend away, just the two of you - shopping trip or spa. That way you could say to her you won’t be taking her away on the bigger family holiday, as you would prefer to have a small trip away just the two of you. It would be a great way to talk, just one on one, and try to get her to open up to you. You could make this a twice yearly thing. Teens push you away, but often all they want is a big hug and a sign that you’re listening to them.

Pfft. In your world, sure. In mine, we all take our teen and young adult children on holiday with us.

Within my friends and my family that's normal - we like spending time as a family.

They also go away with their friends (on much cheaper trips except for inter railing) and we take a few days away as a couple sometimes.

Honestly I wouldn't take her on a separate weekend away just the two of you and not on the family holiday. You'll just reinforce her view that she isn't part of the family. But she does need to know actions have consequences and her behaviour won't be tolerated.

Fwiw I stopped going on holiday with my parents at 16. I was asked I said I'd rather stay at home.