Page 10 | To not get the hate thrown at EVs?

EngineStart · 2024-04-07T13:52:22+00:00

We have an EV. We didn’t get it for environmental reasons, we got it because I have access to an EV lease scheme via work and it was the most cost effective way for us to get a new car. I don’t think I’m morally superior for having one. It serves us well, is nice to drive, and cheaper (for us) than running a petrol car. What I don’t get is the visceral hatred some people have for them. I understand they aren’t for everyone, there are definite logistical challenges with on-street parking and long journeys particularly. However, I expect range and logistics to improve as time goes on. I also get that some car fans might find them a bit sanitised. But I don’t really get why some people are so viciously against them? AIBU?

fiftiesmum · 07/04/2024 19:46

I have not yet had any real life problems from ICE drivers - have had our EV for over five years.
I have found the EV better for my health -DH was a terror for going too fast on the motorway (75 ish sometimes more).
When he realised that by going a little slower (60-65) in the EV we didn't need to charge during the journey I felt much better (and we get there in the same time)

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 19:48

inquisitiveinga · 07/04/2024 16:10

I think in many ways they're great and don't judge anyone for having one as I can completely see the logic behind it all. However, I also agree with PPs regarding battery life and how the recycling element of these huge (and potentially harmful) lithium batteries hasn't yet been perfected... seems to be a problem lying in wait that nobody's bothered to look into that much because we're all just living for the here and now.

It's also worth mentioning that over 85% of the lithium needed to sustain the current EV market is mined in underdeveloped countries, with children living in poverty being exposed to huge dangers in order to mine adequate amounts due to the mines often being too small for adults to navigate.

Obviously they're also paid miniscule amounts in comparison to what an EV costs, so ethically I've got a huge problem with them.

It's so easy to forget that such abhorrent things happen over seas when we live here in (relative) luxury, but sadly with a small amount of research alot of horrors can be easily discovered. The same goes for where our clothes and food comes from, but I do feel that morally, EVs ever so slightly pip other commodities made in underdeveloped countries to the post.

I think the western world often turns a blind eye/doesn't want to acknowledge it because if we did, we wouldn't be able to live with ourselves... or perhaps I'm just speaking for myself.

Edited

I do agree that this is an issue. We don’t connect the dots quite often between what we buy and the various people on that journey of production.

I guess the other argument is that it’s the less developed countries that will also be hit first and worst by the climate emergency and that will effect a greater number of people.

I have to drive so I choose an EV to try and lower my carbon footprint. It’s imperfect but I have to do it.

The other thing is that both ICE and EV manufacturers will have code of conducts around child Labour but neither can guarantee full that no child Labour is used. For ICE cars there a various metals and materials required.

I’m not saying it’s not a problem but it’s sometimes just a case of making the best decision you can but knowing it’s not perfect.

Hoppinggreen · 07/04/2024 19:48

Longma · 07/04/2024 19:40

Agree about lower road tax. Should be higher for all heavier vehicles.

EVs that cost more than £40k pay road tax.
It's not £0 for all EVs.

My electric car cost more than that and I dont pay road tax.
I googled in a panic and ALL EVs are exempt

Original poster

EngineStart · 07/04/2024 19:48

Thanks all for the many responses! A lot to think about.

I do generally stick to stuff that interests me on Twitter but saw an anti-EV post and made the mistake of looking, which now means I get a barrage of anti-EV posts recommended for me 😂

OP posts:

Cherrysoup · 07/04/2024 19:54

Longma · 07/04/2024 19:37

Yeah, that's what we do.
Pull up, plug in, go to the toilet, have a drink and sometimes a snack, then go.
Modern EVs can charge very quickly with the super rapid chargers.
And we rarely have to queue these days, esp at larger service starting where there are new banks of chargers appearing regularly.

Even pre EV we would stop and have a small break mid long journey, it's safer generally to take a break after a couple of hours driving.

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At the petrol station I used last week, (A1, it's kind of obligatory to swap from M1 to the A1), there was no electric vehicle charge point. I was desperate for the loo, literally went there having filled up then got back on the road. No idea how long charging takes but don't want to add a minute to the 5 hour journey and have had my car for about 15 years. Still going strong (my grandfather's axe!)

Proudtobeanortherner · 07/04/2024 19:54

polkadot24 · 07/04/2024 18:45

Lots of car manufacturers have signed up to ethical sourcing. Not great but odd how nobody cares about petrol and diesel car production. Evs don't claim to be perfect, but it's headed in a better direction.

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I’m in agreement with you but I’d have hoped that ethical production would have been mandatory and it isn’t. The production of EVs really isn’t green and charging them definitely isn’t. Why do human beings always believe that new must be better 🥹

Proudtobeanortherner · 07/04/2024 19:57

DefinitelyNobodyYouKnow · 07/04/2024 19:40

Misinformation.

50% of the world's lithium comes from Australia, 25% from Chile, and 14% from China.

There is no evidence of child labour used in lithium mining, and neither does lithium come from central Africa. You're thinking cobalt, which has largely been eliminated from car batteries. It's still used in oil refining, however.

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It isn’t misinformation; the aim is that it’ll be untrue but currently dumping in landfill happens and car parks go up in smoke along with houses.

Proudtobeanortherner · 07/04/2024 19:58

DefinitelyNobodyYouKnow · 07/04/2024 19:13

Misinformation.

Child mining is for cobalt, not lithium. Recent EV batteries don't use cobalt.

Over 50% of the world's lithium is mined in Australia, a further 25% from Chile, and 14% from China. Most of the world's reserves (for future extraction) are in the Americas and Australia.

If you're worried about the damage mining causes to innocent people that live in the area, take a look at the impact of mining oil. (spoiler: respiratory conditions and cancer, mainly affecting children).

Edited

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The question was about EVs.

Sedonasunrises · 07/04/2024 20:00

Cherrysoup · 07/04/2024 19:54

At the petrol station I used last week, (A1, it's kind of obligatory to swap from M1 to the A1), there was no electric vehicle charge point. I was desperate for the loo, literally went there having filled up then got back on the road. No idea how long charging takes but don't want to add a minute to the 5 hour journey and have had my car for about 15 years. Still going strong (my grandfather's axe!)

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If you had an EV though you would have just stopped at a different services with a charging point, same as if you need fuel you stop at one with fuel/need a wee you stop at one with a toilet/need a coffee choose one with hot drinks. There are apps that show you which chargers are where and if they’re working.

polkadot24 · 07/04/2024 20:01

Proudtobeanortherner · 07/04/2024 19:54

I’m in agreement with you but I’d have hoped that ethical production would have been mandatory and it isn’t. The production of EVs really isn’t green and charging them definitely isn’t. Why do human beings always believe that new must be better 🥹

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But petrol and diesel aren't green either, however the air is less polluted and it is greener than petrol/diesel. Energy companies are working towards being green. Staying the same is not an option, the earth is destroyed! Why do human beings believe carrying on as we have been is better?

Wooloohooloo · 07/04/2024 20:01

The only bit I'm not keen is on is the push for everyone to own them because it affects low to mid earners far more than high earners including the fact that charging points would be impossible to install for a lot of housing such a terraces and flats.

Devilshands · 07/04/2024 20:02

DefinitelyNobodyYouKnow · 07/04/2024 19:40

Misinformation.

50% of the world's lithium comes from Australia, 25% from Chile, and 14% from China.

There is no evidence of child labour used in lithium mining, and neither does lithium come from central Africa. You're thinking cobalt, which has largely been eliminated from car batteries. It's still used in oil refining, however.

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Chinese manufactures operate most of the lithium mines in the world. The product is it then taken to China where it is processed - using child labour.

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:03

Anyotherdude · 07/04/2024 17:59

The environmental impact of creating a new car is so large that realistically, you’d only negate it by covering at least 150,000+ miles in it
Taxing people who purchased Diesel cars, on the advice of the Government, on the grounds that they were more polluting, was very unfair
Forcing people to change to EV’s by introducing ULEZ meant that a lot of the scrapped cars hadn’t reached their break-even impact from manufacture before being replaced
EV batteries use insane amounts of rare metals, causing a future looming crisis on a much larger scale than anticipated, with associated further impact on climate change
The rush to get EV’s to market has resulted in some unexpected, environmental impacts such as the Luton Airport car park blaze and increased damage to road surfaces, necessitating greater reliance on fossil fuels for repair and maintenance, since those machines are generally ICE driven
EV’s are so heavy that it’s only a matter of time before a dated car park is collapsed by the weight of them - and to add insult to injury, they take more power to move than ICE vehicles - power that is generated by burning coal in the majority of cases

TBH, OP, I don’t think it’s so much the EV’s themselves that people hate, but the methods employed by thick as mince politicians, whose thought processes are mainly concentrated on extracting excessive amounts of money from normal people. If you calculate the additional costs that normal families, often not higher tax payers, have been forced to spend, on the drive to reduce emissions, you’ll notice that their true rate of enforced payment (tax) has spiralled beyond the ridiculous rate that, in the 1970’s, had the super-rich and those whose flight caused the “brain-drain” of the same period, fleeing to the rest of the world for a chance to enjoy their millions.

I’m sure someone has already let you know this but many of these statements aren’t backed by evidence.

In terms of production, an EV is on a par with ICE in terms f carbon footprint if the battery is made in Scandinavia using renewables. For a Chinese manufactured battery it’s higher. But it’s far fewer miles before its carbon footprint is matched and then lower. Especially if the electricity used to drive it is from renewables.

Lithuium batteries are an issue but they can be reused or recycled. There is a lot of work being done on this.

The Luton Airport blaze was caused by an ICE vehicle catching light. Not an EV.

EVs are made as light as possible to improve range. It’s very much dependent on size. A great big Range Rover or SUV is far heavier. These big SUVs are new and car parks haven’t collapsed.

More power to move? You mean to drive I assume rather than on a truck if they breakdown. If the electricity is made from renewables that’s not oil and gas. Regardless, the evidence is that they are lower carbon footprint over their lifespan than ICE vehicles including production and end of life battery issues.

Thick as mince politicians I can get on board with!!! Mind you, may be you don’t know about the massive tax payer subsidies given to the oil and gas industries?

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:07

Wooloohooloo · 07/04/2024 20:01

The only bit I'm not keen is on is the push for everyone to own them because it affects low to mid earners far more than high earners including the fact that charging points would be impossible to install for a lot of housing such a terraces and flats.

I agree to an extent but you can pick up a used EV Zoe for 5-7000. You can buy a granny cable and charge from your home electricity (normal three pronged plug) and if you do it over night when it’s cheaper, it’s soooo cheap to run. In terraced houses this is really tricky but not impossible. Costs around £4 for 130 miles for us. Tax is zero (about to go up but likely to be low) and insurance is on a par with our ICE car. All in all it’s a good budget option. If you charge it out about it’s more expensive but still less than petrol.

Minfilia · 07/04/2024 20:08

I get what you mean OP, some people despise their very existence. Maybe due to the urban myth that it raises insurance prices for everyone.

Having said that; I have one now but I won’t be getting another until I’m forced to. Mine is 3 years old and I’m glad I got it on a PCH and didn’t buy it. Already the battery life sucks.

The alleged 205 mile range gets me about 80 in reality if im on a motorway. Its very limiting, particularly when the services I use has the grand total of two charging bays so I always have to wait!

The car drives really well. It’s lovely inside and out. But the range is appalling and it would be difficult to sell second hand I think.

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:10

Pinkfluffypencilcase · 07/04/2024 18:21

Agree about lower road tax. Should be higher for all heavier vehicles.

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I’ve benefitted from this but agree to an extent. I’d argue though that a massive SUV is way heavier than my little EV Zoe.

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:11

Minfilia · 07/04/2024 20:08

I get what you mean OP, some people despise their very existence. Maybe due to the urban myth that it raises insurance prices for everyone.

Having said that; I have one now but I won’t be getting another until I’m forced to. Mine is 3 years old and I’m glad I got it on a PCH and didn’t buy it. Already the battery life sucks.

The alleged 205 mile range gets me about 80 in reality if im on a motorway. Its very limiting, particularly when the services I use has the grand total of two charging bays so I always have to wait!

The car drives really well. It’s lovely inside and out. But the range is appalling and it would be difficult to sell second hand I think.

That is rubbish!! I’m really surprised as our old EV still gives the same range as it did new. It’s probably about 8 years old ish.

Saintmariesleuth · 07/04/2024 20:15

My issue with EVs is all the greenwashing around them. They are often marketed as being good for the environment, yet they still cause a great deal of environmental damage. Especially the mining for the cobalt and lithium, and the disposal of the batteries. Greenpeace seem to share my concerns and advocate that walking or using public transport are far better options. Evs also still release tyre particulate, which I believe is a particularly potent lung irritant and suspected to exacerbate illness such as asthma

My concern is that the current attitude around EVs is papering over the need for us as a society to change our habits that would make a larger, positive impact on the environment

Porridgeislife · 07/04/2024 20:16

Proudtobeanortherner · 07/04/2024 19:54

I’m in agreement with you but I’d have hoped that ethical production would have been mandatory and it isn’t. The production of EVs really isn’t green and charging them definitely isn’t. Why do human beings always believe that new must be better 🥹

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Wrong. Charging an EV is currently far greener than filling up your car with petrol.

Around 1% of the UK grid is coal powered, around 35% is gas, about 40% is powered by renewables and the rest is a mix of nuclear and biomass which are both clean energies.

Vs 100% fossil fuel in your ICE.

soupfiend · 07/04/2024 20:17

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:07

I agree to an extent but you can pick up a used EV Zoe for 5-7000. You can buy a granny cable and charge from your home electricity (normal three pronged plug) and if you do it over night when it’s cheaper, it’s soooo cheap to run. In terraced houses this is really tricky but not impossible. Costs around £4 for 130 miles for us. Tax is zero (about to go up but likely to be low) and insurance is on a par with our ICE car. All in all it’s a good budget option. If you charge it out about it’s more expensive but still less than petrol.

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What is the range and do you lease the battery (and if so, for how much)

xyz111 · 07/04/2024 20:24

I work in the emergency services and I don't think I will buy one yet. Never a second hand one as you don't know what damage has been done to the batteries. And when they catch fire, they REALLY go!!!

Simpledimples · 07/04/2024 20:24

People who hate them obviously don't have them or have any experience with them. I love mine, 300 mile range, costs me £4-5 to fully charge it at home. On the few occasions I've charged at services/town etc I've never queued for a charger - (there is an app which tells you closest chargers and whether in use). I can set the temperature before I get in it, it's very fast - acceleration is amazing.

Colddespiteduvet · 07/04/2024 20:31

fieldsofbutterflies · 07/04/2024 18:47

I'm sure they are, but they're also completely un-affordable for the vast majority of people.

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You can pick up a used EV for as little as £5000. 😊

Chersfrozenface · 07/04/2024 20:32

I don't hate them but they're not for us.

We don't have off road parking - we often can't park near our house and sometimes not even in our street.

We don't do a big supermarket shop (we shop local) or commute to work by car.

There are 24 charging stations in our city, with a population of 350,000.

We need an estate car and it's used almost entirely for long trips, usually fully loaded, so range is a major drawback. Anyway, we can't afford an electric version, they're far too expensive.

Sedonasunrises · 07/04/2024 20:34

I do agree that they seem quite impossible to own if you don’t have parking, which rules them out for a lot of people.