Is this going to cause a massive family rift?

[Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor]

Sorry for length of this -

I have an older brother who is a little bit of a moocher - I’ve posted about him before under a different name. He has had a great education and many opportunities in life and has ended up, in his mid 30s, with no money and financially dependent on my mother. He never pays for himself and works a couple of hours a day, and that’s it. He is always feeling sorry for himself due to having no money, and therefore my mother/other siblings bank roll him as they worry he is depressed. I think he’s just playing on their emotions/using them (but I can’t be sure of this).

He is always asking us if he can do odd jobs for cash. We let him dog sit last year whilst we were away - fridge full of food for him at ours, 25£ a day etc, and he fucked off for 10 hours a day to see friends and left our dog crying (we could hear on camera after neighbour messaged asking if dog was alright)/had to get mother to intervene as we were abroad. Came home to a fruit bowl full of rotting fruit and fridge full of off milk etc.

Anyway we are expecting and he’s due to be god father as he is an extremely fun brother/uncle. We offered him 200-300£ to paint a wardrobe for the baby as he’s very talented artistically and his hobby is art related. He agreed. We set a deadline of 1 week for the work to be finished. 3 weeks later. 3 weeks of him lying (I can’t do it today as I’m working - turns out he was just at home chilling etc), showing up hours after he said he would, us waiting around for him….what he has painted is shockingly bad - he didn’t put the tape on properly and it needs totally clearing up/the non painted bits will need to be repainted to fix it. Anyway we basically said “if you don’t want to do this please just say as we had another person lined up”. No, he’s sorry but he’s not motivated. Ok, fine. So we have to get the other person to undo all his shitty work and the deadline was weeks ago and this has been a totally maddening experience.

Today he messaged asking for money for the time spent on it. On one hand - maybe he is depressed (although he is never too depressed to see his friends and do the things HE wants to do - dinners, lunches, cinema trips, gym etc) and he did spend some time painting. On the other hand he totally fucking let us down and it’s going to now cost us MORE money than the other person originally quoted as she’s not starting from scratch.

I don’t want to cause a huge family argument if we don’t pay him so do we just pay him something? What’s fair?

This - we have legal (very responsible) guardians named in our will!

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor - you wrote "There was always just a bit of an understanding that he would be godfather as my other brother is and that predates the uptick of the cheeky fuckery." - you know you are allowed to change your mind.

If someone has a go at you for changing your mind, simply recant the story about asking him to look after your dog while you were away and how that worked out.

He hasn't improved his ways because everyone has walked on eggshells around him and pandered to his whinges and moans, so why on earth would he want to improve himself when he is allowed to get away with shitty behaviour and cheeky fuckery? Time to say that this kind of thing stops right now.

And what consideration to they give for you when they do something hurtful? Does anyone care if you are hurt or does this rule only exist for other family members?

This is a great point!

I don't understand this. Why does being depressed mean you're owed money? Is there some rule I don't know about?

Absolutely don't pay and stop enabling the enabling!!
I have a sibling who is similar in some ways but we don't give them handouts for lying.

As a Pp said - he won’t be responsible for our children. We have guardians named in our will.

I totally agree re us all enabling him though.

Offer to attend a GP appointment about his depression.. If he won't go yanbu to assume he is just a lazy cunt. And your dm is his enabler.. Absolutely do not part with YOUR hard earned cash. He won't be a good God father. He is no role model is he?

They can pay him for it, then.

I will suggest this too!

“Applescruffle · Today 18:01
I absolutely do not believe that depression is the reason he neglected your dog, or the reason he couldn't be arsed to finish the painting job. As you say, he can manage to go out to the cinema, the pub or the gym. He's just a lazy, immature, selfish asshole and he will continue to be a lazy, selfish immature asshole until someone stops enabling him. And even when that happens he will probably think its their fault.”

This. Your mum and other family members are enabling his poor behaviour because it somehow suits them. They’re actually doing him an appalling disservice. They’re infantilising him.

In his late teens/20s, DH had a lovely friend who was similarly cosseted and infantilised. Even at that early age, he was showing signs of being an alcoholic and DH tried to get him to AA and get his family to Al-Anon but they persisted in denial. DH was very fond of him so stuck with him as long as he could but in the end they drifted as DH could no longer bear what this friend was doing to himself and found it increasingly difficult to be around him when he was drunk. DH spent about 20 years hoping for a phone call to say this friend had got himself clean but dreading a call that he had died. When the call came, it was the latter.

Honestly, that could be your brother. It’s very hard for you, OP, but it is more loving of you to make him face consequences than to pretend his fecklessness doesn’t matter.

My mother says she is scared he will hurt himself if everyone gets tough with him. There is no history of him doing this and he hasn’t threatened to so I don’t know if this a genuine concern or she doesn’t want to change the status quo as he’s her dinner buddy when she wants to go to a restaurant so it’s quite nice for her, the current set up.

This sounds scarily prophetic. Scarily. The convenient for family relationship enabling him And the excessive drinking. Wow.

You know, thinking about it, if this was me he'd never have got the chance to do this job because I still wouldn't be speaking to him because of him abusing my dog. Dogs can develop serious behavioural problems due to neglect. Thinking how frightened it must have been is heartbreaking and I'm not a dog person.

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor - you’ve hit the nail on the head. This set-up suits your mum. In fact, she is being incredibly selfish. It’s very difficult for you to be in the middle of that but it sounds like your mum and your brother have got into a very codependent relationship which is incredibly damaging for your brother.

Have just seen your response to my post. The thing is that it’s easy to slip into these toxic, co-dependant arrangements. Your mum I’m sure has many good qualities and doesn’t mean to harm your brother, but she is. Just as DH’s friend’s family - who loved him dearly - did him great harm through their refusal to let him grow up.

The issue is I can’t really help him when he’s being enabled and not helping himself. I can distance myself and not enable him also, but I will just become the arsehole to everyone as saying no to him feels like kicking a puppy must do.

It’s been 16 years on and off of the same thing. Everyone funding him and him saying he’s “feeling down” when challenged.
Sixteen years! Have the family not noticed in all that time that their enabling is not producing any positive results?

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor - yes: it’s very difficult when you’re the only person behaving like an adult. And it’s not your responsibility to fix your brother. Your language is so telling: your brother is not a baby animal, he’s a grown man but you’ve all been conditioned to treat him like a vulnerable child. Not your fault, OP, and it’s completely understandable if you don’t feel able to take this on.

I will just become the arsehole to everyone as saying no to him feels like kicking a puppy must do.
You'll find ways to phrase it ("it's for his own good", "my children come first").
Don't worry about the 'little puppy' because some other saft person will step in to look after him. Just not you any more.

Don't pay him and certainly don't have him as godfather. What are you thinking? He's a lazy sod.

Don’t pay him a penny. He’s a lazy work shy cock lodger

agree with pp that you ask your family what they would pay for that, deduct the extra costs you have and tell them the answer. If they want to give him money that's their look out, but you are enabling him if you pay him for that.

And if you love him - you need to lead on this. Explain to your family that they are enabling and encouraging him and that you are no longer prepared to do this. You need to explain to them in clear terms that your brother needs help and what they are doing is hindering that. And then step back. It is the only way he's going to get any help at all.

I'm sitting here wondering if maybe I was a hit harsh in what I said but honestly, I wasn't exaggerating when I said I've seen it over and over. I used to work in debt advice and the amount of middle aged women having severe financial problems with adult sons living at home was huge. Alaays the mums and the adult sons, never dads and never daughters. So many of them saying "I can't cancel my hugely expensive sky package so I can afford basic necessities because Craig needs his sky sports" or "I can't expect Liam to contribute, he has his phone/gym membership/nights out to pay for" etc etc. Taking on extra shifts at work or borrowing beyond their means to bankroll men in their late 20s and 30s who wouldn't even buy their mothers so much as a mothers' day card.
It's the ultimate unseen toxic relationship and its epidemic. And IME, its extremely difficult to talk either side out of it. The last things you want to do is get involved in any way OP just don't be another person he walks all over.

That is absolutely fascinating and I can well believe it!

@Applescruffle that is depressing.

A child could paint furniture better than that. It’s shit. Don’t pay him a penny