Is this going to cause a massive family rift?

[Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor]

Sorry for length of this -

I have an older brother who is a little bit of a moocher - I’ve posted about him before under a different name. He has had a great education and many opportunities in life and has ended up, in his mid 30s, with no money and financially dependent on my mother. He never pays for himself and works a couple of hours a day, and that’s it. He is always feeling sorry for himself due to having no money, and therefore my mother/other siblings bank roll him as they worry he is depressed. I think he’s just playing on their emotions/using them (but I can’t be sure of this).

He is always asking us if he can do odd jobs for cash. We let him dog sit last year whilst we were away - fridge full of food for him at ours, 25£ a day etc, and he fucked off for 10 hours a day to see friends and left our dog crying (we could hear on camera after neighbour messaged asking if dog was alright)/had to get mother to intervene as we were abroad. Came home to a fruit bowl full of rotting fruit and fridge full of off milk etc.

Anyway we are expecting and he’s due to be god father as he is an extremely fun brother/uncle. We offered him 200-300£ to paint a wardrobe for the baby as he’s very talented artistically and his hobby is art related. He agreed. We set a deadline of 1 week for the work to be finished. 3 weeks later. 3 weeks of him lying (I can’t do it today as I’m working - turns out he was just at home chilling etc), showing up hours after he said he would, us waiting around for him….what he has painted is shockingly bad - he didn’t put the tape on properly and it needs totally clearing up/the non painted bits will need to be repainted to fix it. Anyway we basically said “if you don’t want to do this please just say as we had another person lined up”. No, he’s sorry but he’s not motivated. Ok, fine. So we have to get the other person to undo all his shitty work and the deadline was weeks ago and this has been a totally maddening experience.

Today he messaged asking for money for the time spent on it. On one hand - maybe he is depressed (although he is never too depressed to see his friends and do the things HE wants to do - dinners, lunches, cinema trips, gym etc) and he did spend some time painting. On the other hand he totally fucking let us down and it’s going to now cost us MORE money than the other person originally quoted as she’s not starting from scratch.

I don’t want to cause a huge family argument if we don’t pay him so do we just pay him something? What’s fair?

“this is what family is about”

For your mother family is all about enabling one child to con the other for money, neglecting a dog so badly that your neighbours had to contact you when you were out of the country, crippling an adult child by protecting him from all consequences because it feeds some need in her emotionally. They don't care how they are hurting you, they don't care that they are harming your marriage (because at some point your DH is going to be completely pissed of that his DW family are taking him for a mug and you are allowing it) they don't care for the new baby coming into the family as they are charging cash to help prepare for the arrival of this baby. How callous is that, that this "fun" uncle wants cash to make his new niece's bedroom nice for her? Not very family oriented is it.

Here's something to consider OP, how about treating him as he treats you, he visits your home and wants a cup of tea? Two pound for the cuppa extra for the biscuit, cash upfront before the kettle goes on. It sounds ridiculous doesn't it, but it is exactly what he is doing, wanting cash for being a decent family member.

I’d probably say either you can have nothing and we draw a line or I’ll deduct the new quote from the £200 but he might owe you.

i’d also totally be scrutinising all these types of situations again.

Personally though I’m a bit ‘meh’ about the godparent thing, my DC are christened with his parents but in reality we never go to church, the god parents won’t be looking after the DC if we pass - honestly I don’t hold the god parents up to a high standard of behaviour.

I do think your brother needs some consequences for bad behaviour though, so no more paid jobs. If anyone asks why you’re paying people to do work around the house etc, point to dog/wardrobe experience. He needs to prove he can be trusted.

Oh yes I agree that he shouldn't be a Godparent.

He couldn't even look after the dog!

@diddl I was not saying he would be automatically. My point is, if they haven't made their wishes explicit, then if something did happen, the fact that he is her brother and also the godparent along with her other brother being godparent to her other child could sway the courts could it not?

Hey, I’m in a similar family dynamic which has probably caused me more stress and upset that it has my sibling. I don’t think people can really get what it’s like to be in such a family. But my short advice would be - pay a token amount and chalk it up to being the last time. Don’t buy the trunks, don’t give him odd jobs and take a massive step back. My therapist told me to stretch out my arms and feel my boundary around me. Feel your boundary. None of this is ok and you don’t have to bend for him, just because others are. I hope the new paint job is beautiful

And I get making him a godparent but maybe have two? I know someone who has like 5 god mothers!

I don’t know either of my godparents and they had nothing to do with my upbringing, and I was raised catholic. The whole thing seems completely pointless. I don’t see godparents as anything other than a symbolic role. Uncle is more important!

Well I don't know.

Her other brother might be settled with kids & holding down a job.

If this guy can't support himself I'm not sure that he'd even be considered.

I think that it's realised that for a lot of people godparent is pretty meaningless.

This!!!
I was shocked when I read that your mother's response to seeing he was charging you for a rubbish job was to post public photos on social media of the family saying this is what a real family is like. As in, pass agg hinting that you are not behaving like a real family. The injustice of it.
It must have hurt so much.

It seems from this, your DM's behaviour is more of an issue than your DB and as pp have said it might help to get some professional advice on how to deal with this, as with most things, it becomes more and more of an issue when you have children and a family unit of your own and your priorities change, so that you can no longer accomodate this behaviour, which is exactly what has happened here

I think that your mother views you as an extension of her. She sees you as her stand in and anything she would do for your DB, she expects you, as her extension to do for him as well, without question.
If you do question it, she is horrified because you are not fulfilling the self sacrificing role she has decided for you. I bet she gets a real kick out of self sacrificing for your brother and being a bit of a martyr because she thinks that is what a "real" mother/family would do.
I know of a parent who did this, eg consistently raided one child's belongings to give away "gifts" from parent to other family members, or volunteered their services free (childcare/long distance driving/lending money/ doing free work unthanked/house hunting) to other family members even distance ones- because that is what the parent would have done themselves but couldn't. But they saw their own "head of the family" role as providing for the favoured person, and so picked one or two in the family to be the dogsbody as their stand ins, to take full credit for the favour. When the standins protested or said No I don't want to do/can't do that - there was absolute hell to pay.

Looking back, I think the relative was preparing the junior dogsbody's to continue the parents self sacrificing role as this was "what families do."

I bet if your DB needed a wardobe painted, she'd volunteer you to do it for free.

He did a really awful job for a couple of days which became increasingly bad but which I could see he basically just didn’t “get” the issue eg “dogs just sleep”. He didn’t seem to think dog was that upset.

What is "fun" or "loving" about a person who does that. If he doesn't understand basic care for animals, I wouldn't just not have him to babysit, but also wouldn't leave him unsupervised with DC. ( I am not saying don't let him see them, but that he's not a responsible adult) And also imagine what kind of advice he would give the DC when they are older, teens for example, about partying, drinking etc... he's going to tell them to go out and have "fun" or what he thinks of as "fun" isn't he? He's not going to say to them your parents have a good reason for saying xyz. (not that they shouldn't have fun, but I can't see him backing you up)

I mised the trunks story - what is this?

he’s not a father so the responsibility level or expectation isn’t the same

I'm sorry but no. Yet another excuse. Many of us don't have children and are more than capable of being responsible and caring appropriately for relatives and pets as required. I know you didn't mean to be but that is actually insulting.

Bloody hell, this is a useful thread.
I've got the lazy arsed brother and the narc mother. Different examples but same shit.
This has actually made me quite sad and then angry. Going to crack on with getting a grip. Then going to reread and probably have a little cry.
It all takes up so much headspace.

just wanted to send you a hug. This thread has been pretty brutal for me, but ultimately very helpful and I’m going to be re reading it. A lot.

Sorry you're having similar crap to deal with; it is utterly horrible 💐

Reading the thread has brought back unhappy memories for me. Like you, different examples but all very similar.

I'm just glad I'm nearly out the other side. I have NC with my brother but I do wonder if he'll pop his ugly head up when parents die. So I have that to deal with yet which isn't a nice thought.

Sorry it was quoting what my DH said, and I don’t/he didn’t at all mean that childless people don’t need to be responsible. But my brother is not in a position- and nor will he ever be - where he will be responsible for my children. We have guardians named in the will. He doesn’t babysit.

DH is very much “im not paying him a penny and if your family have an issue with that, direct them to me”.

this thread has made me sad but also emboldened me to risk getting in “trouble” with my family over this. As PPs have said - why on earth would they not just be on my side/why would they fight his corner on this?

It’s been interesting how many people on this thread have experienced similar and how things look (the same but worse) in 15-20 years time. That’s exactly what my fear is for DB. He’s still young, he can turn his life around. It will become progressively harder the deeper into this he goes.

agree with the PP he could work for a warhammer shop - we have one 15 mins away. He’s fallen out with them or something.

DH is very much “im not paying him a penny and if your family have an issue with that, direct them to me”.

Good for him.

If you were feeling kind I might suggest a tenner.

What an insult to you that he has done such shoddy work.

If that's his standard of work wtf would he expect payment?

Eta he should actually be paying for what needs rectifying.

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor

agree with the PP he could work for a warhammer shop - we have one 15 mins away. He’s fallen out with them or something.

Easy not to take responsibility in any situation, including the working world, when you have a nice cushy safety net of the sort your mother provides him. He's not building up any national insurance contributions towards his state pension (which, I suspect will be closer to 70years or more for him).

Assuming he'll one day get an inheritance from your mother's estate, that may not keep him if he lives to a great age and he'll come to his brother and you to ensure he's not destitute once the inheritance runs out, when you and your husband are looking at your own long term financial health plus that of your children. 🌹

I think the other half of that question is also, why is he doing the "I'm going to tell my mum on you I am" dance whenever he has messed you about and you dare to protest.
And why are they automatically piling in, when its more usual to say its between the two of you. Not just piling in but ignoring logic and deciding you are definitely in the wrong and he should get off scott free.
Major part of the problem is the way he keeps involving them to tell you off and they participate.
Is it just your mum or other siblings too?

Excellent point Duckedbilled. A healthy response would be 'you're adults, resolve it between yourselves.'

I wonder if the brother could have adhd? We have a similar problem with my older brother. He has trauma and undiagnosed mh issues. My parents support him. It's frustrating that he won't get help but it's better for my parents to have him housed and in contact, rather than homeless and lost.

I think just because of the sheer amount of time they spend together; they just discuss all of this stuff and my mother is overly invested in our lives.

Not true.
Depression can be different for different people.
And sometimes present differently in the same people.

I've had depression where I was unable to get out of bed, and other times where no one would have known.

Lots of people are saying he has a great life but could he really be happy if he's so codependent with his mother?

After saying that though from what has been said I think it sounds more like he has ADHD than depression so he could be happy enough just doing what he wants without pressure to do what he doesn't want.

@Whatdoyoudowiththedrunkensailor
Has he ever had a serious relationship? or any relationships at all?

Like others have said, having read everything you have posted I do think the main issue here is with your mother. My MIL was the same - after FIL died she enabled 'useless son' with his joblessness and idleness, as this meant that unlike my DH, he didn't leave the nest. Essentially she kept him as a sort of horrible pet (their shared hobby was Scrabble and drinking rather than dinners out), and he was 'lucky' (sorry MIL) that she died while he was 20 years short of retirement so he could still be employed and get some sort of life back.

Your mother isn't scared he'll 'do something' if everyone tells him to knuckle down - she's scared he'll escape her clutches. I think you need to research how to draw him away from the dysfunction.

I agree that depression can present in many different ways. I do just think it feels extremely convenient that he’s able to do all of the things he wants, and none of the things that look like hard work. Or even moderate work.

I really don’t think he has ADHD.

he has a pattern he follows in relationships - gets extremely over invested after 1-2 dates and throws himself in - eg bakes a lot for them, buys a specific mattress topper if they mention they like it. After approx 3 months he loses interest. He’s had a couple of long term relationships (he even lived with one for a year or two) but in the end it’s more or less the same - he just isn’t interested. He goes out with his friends drinking and ignores them, then blames the break up on them being “controlling” etc.