Private education and healthcare

[LeafUsAlone]

I'm just curious as to why they are considered morally indefensible when people being able to afford better quality clothing, houses, safer cars etc aren't commented on in the same way?

Considering both private healthcare and education doesn't necessarily mean a better quality, why do people get so annoyed over them?

Ironically, when services are starved of people, money and resources, they become increasingly inefficient. No organisation anywhere, ever, became more effective and efficient by being starved of cash, particularly when simultaneously interfered with by Tory Governments pretending to improve efficiency, but 100% of the time making things worse.

It's not just a cash issue though. The systemic inefficiencies, poor management and policies need to be radically changed before more money makes a difference.

Constant firefighting is inefficient and exhausting.

@Boombatty Of course it is not just cash, but you can’t actually make improvements without cash. Not enough cash will just be wasted, because what needs to be done cannot be afforded, so the money is instead soent either where it is not making a difference, or in putting out fires, rather than dealing with the causes of the fires.

Actually I disagree. DH works with failing companies. Companies who are about to become insolvent often make huge radical changes to improve their processes so that they can start being profitable again. And I'm talking about good practice processes, not just firing people or reducing salary. He has seen many, many failing cash-poor private companies turned around pretty quickly by changing their systems and processes.

Throwing more money at the NHS without making fundamental changes to its processes would be madness.

@Boombatty - the political changes made to the NHS have consistently been the wrong ones. It has become increasingly uncoordinated, with multiple fingers now in the pie.

And sorry, but failing infrastructure and a lack of people are not cheap to repair.

Money needs to be spent in the right places though. How much has the NHS wasted on diversity initiatives like removing the word "women" from women's health information and paying for midwives to be trained to say "birthing partner" and "chestfeeding" instead of "mother" and "breastfeeding"?

Spend money on changing the inefficient and self-defeating processes so that the rest of the money can actually be used efficiently.

I agree but it's not just the governments that made those changes over the past 50 years. Its internal NHS governance that needs to change. The NHS is eating itself while the government is putting it on a diet.

Trying to force education into being solely state-funded doesn’t work to achieve equality. What happens is that the state sector arranges itself accordingly, and you end up with a hierarchy of state schools where those that can afford to buy their way into the catchment zone.

My parents grew up in communist countries - class wasn’t abolished, it merely reorganized itself. There were elite schools that parents either used the influence afforded by their job to get their children into, used their connections, or straight up employed bribery. This was as standard.

@Boombatty - I agree money needs to be spent in the right places, but to think diverting the money spent on diversity is enough to fix hospitals suffering regular massive power or IT outages, or to stop wards being closed because it is feared the upper floors on that hospital wing might collapse imminently, or to fix the queues of ambulances backing up outside of A&E, is just expecting to find a few billion pounds in small change down the back of the sofa.

Diversity is just one example I'm aware of where the NHS is wasting money. I'm sure there are hundreds more.

The queues of ambulances at A&E are a great example of self-defeating policies.

Except people want equity, not equality. I should imagine most people recognise that the state taking over everything is likely far from being a cure-all, especially in a dictatorship, communist or otherwise. People recognise inequitable situations and arrangements when they see them, though. Our school and healthcare situation is a symptom of a wider societal malaise. The current level of inequality in our society is not equitable and is manmade, not inevitable.

Sure, but I’m not seeing how nationalization of education would remedy that.

I’m not saying it will. It won’t make it more inequitable, though. The basic problem is one of mindset, as I’ve already pointed out in previous posts. Society will not become more equitable until people stop assuming everyone else is only really out for themselves, with personal or business profit the primary or sole motive. Some people currently think they can force a mindset change through nationalisation.

Well, I’m a believer in personal liberty over a collectivist mindset, so I absolutely disagree with the notion.

That said, I don’t think it’s one or the other - either out for yourself or out for society. It’s far more nuanced than that.

I agree that the NHS needs money to get out of the current mess, but I don’t see much use in throwing money at it without a clear strategy for reform. Neither political party has proposed anything to tackle the fundamental issues - just vague promises and adjustments around the sides. I think to address the fundamental issues a great deal of the practices and principles of the current NHS needs to be dismantled, unfortunately, and that is politically toxic.

in the meantime the private sector growth is going to continue to accelerate. I would say most of my friends have used private healthcare in past year, and while 5 years ago I was viewed as odd for using a private gp, more and more in our circle do this as first course rather than last course having effectively given up on the nhs. Thing is this is a missed opportunity for the NHS, which could be capturing some of that revenue - if we are moving towards (living in?) a two tier system we would be collectively better off if we could use money from the paying tier to better fund the public tier.

Stepping back in to play devil's advocate

Those who can afford private healthcare and education but opt out - is that not privilege of a different kind? It would suggest you are devoid of the critical illnesses and issues in the areas of education and health that have caused many to turn to private institutions

@LeafUsAlone yes, it is a different sort of privilege but it still means resources we have contributed can be used for those who don't have that privilege.

I am not willing to pay a penny more towards the NHS until patients are regarded as equal stakeholders and standards of service improve. I am under an NHS dept and I am sick and tired of arriving at 11.15 and not being seen until 1pm, the fact there is no apology, that patients are spoken to as though they are subordinates in the relationship and that their time doesn't matter.

I had a health scare last year that initiated an ultrasound and a specialist liver scan with hepatology. Both were clear. After four months of significant worry I got to speak to the consultant "oh wasn't an enzyme test ordered to identify if the issue was liver or bone?". Nope. It was bone. There was significant waste of resources to get to that point. Notwithstanding wasting two days of my time and causing acute distress. I note, I had those test privately so I didn't actually waste NHS resources but Dr's were happy to waste them despite there being a blood test to indicate where the issue arose. Had it been done at the outset, the bone disease I have would have been diagnosed five months earlier and more cheaply. There is nothing that can be done about it - no treatment.

They got the scans organised very quickly but the point is with a little foresight, they were not necessary.

This really irks me as well!! Couple down the road drive a Tesla, have a much nicer house than us and have 2 exotic holidays a year, yet moan about how unfair private education is and they can’t afford it! Well, drive a shitty banger like me, downsize your house to a semi detached like me and stop with the holidays like me then you might be able to afford it!

and Labour want to penalise ME by adding 20% to school fees when I am just giving my children a good education rather than sending them to the shit schools near me! What a joke!

This

Some people DO get het up about others spending their money on nice things though - incredibly batshit handbag thread.

Agree. I have a child with SEN, and I can’t believe any parent would choose to let their child struggle for years (3 year wait just to get assessed in our area) if they had the resources to either expedite or access needed support. It is impossible to get state help until you are well past the point of crisis, so any parent with means does what they can to get support via private means (assessments, therapy interventions, places in Sen friendly schools, lawyers and consultants to help navigate, etc.) if you think state education is just fine, you are seriously lucky with either the school or your child’s needs.

My objections are mainly:

• the private sector drags away staff trained at public expense in the NHS & state schools
• the private healthcare sector can pick and choose the least complex, highest margin offerings and leave the most burdensome care (eg chronic conditions, emergency care) on the state sector
• private schools can select only the "easiest" to educate pupils, thus leaving a higher proportion of children from deprived backgrounds and with additional needs to the state
• this then adds to the cycle of the public sector roles becoming harder and harder to recruit for despite paying all the cost/infrastructure of training the staff etc.

Those who can afford private healthcare and education but opt out - is that not privilege of a different kind? It would suggest you are devoid of the critical illnesses and issues in the areas of education and health that have caused many to turn to private institutions

I can afford it all. However i think its really important that we stay with state education because it needs all parents to advocate for better state provision for those with additional needs, because many, many people will never be able to afford anything else.