Private education and healthcare

[LeafUsAlone]

I'm just curious as to why they are considered morally indefensible when people being able to afford better quality clothing, houses, safer cars etc aren't commented on in the same way?

Considering both private healthcare and education doesn't necessarily mean a better quality, why do people get so annoyed over them?

I’m not asking about the rest of the thread. I’m only interested in why you wtaf-ed pizza at me?

I also think the cure, since human beings are so f*cking stupid, is for everyone to end up suffering so much that the rats realise there is no escape from the sinking ship, so they either start working to try and improve things for all, or absolutely everyone sinks.

The cheap clothes, sure.

But more money can buy safer cars - safer for those inside them, that is! And the very best car seats for children are four times the cost of the cheapest.

And the kids who don't (miracously) achieve high anyway in the current abysmal state system - what happens to them? Would you rather they get low paid jobs / never work at all or get a decent (private) education that enables them to enter well-paid careers and give back to the society? I think it's just a bit of a coincidence how all the kids of those passionately hating the private school sector invariably get A* and are on their way to Oxbridge. Not quite the reality, is it!

My apologies for giving you the impression I was wtaf’ing you, @StormingNorman . I know it’s annoying when people feel comments have been misattributed. I quoted your post, because that was the first one I was responding to. I was so shocked by the crass references to pizza in the post after yours that I then commented on that, without making it clear that I was now referring to a different post (except by virtue of the fact it was obvious I was referring to a different post). When I am addressing someone directly, I always @ them, so didn’t immediately think you would assume I was talking to you, rather than talking about the last few posts.

I think someone would be stupid to force more people onto a sinking boat maybe get it seaworthy and they’ll be happy jump on 🤷‍♀️

I'm always interested in the Equality stance of those who work in and for the NHS. The NHS is so fundamentally unhierarchical and respectful of all those who work for it and are treated by it. Not.

Sit in any outpatient department and listen to the men called to their appointments as Mr and women without a title. Be greeted by the Dr "hello Jane, I'm Mr Brown". Is that equality or is it breathtakingly reductive? Notwithstanding poorer pain relief for women and failure to take women's symptoms seriously

🤣 Like it's possible to jump onto a boat when you are already drowning yourself in any event, having jumped out believing you had a life raft to escape to and then realising that has also got away from you.

But the people paying for healthcare and education aren’t complaining? So I think in your metaphor they are happily paddling along in their life raft.

I think you’re getting lost in your own metaphor… do you want to try my pizza one?

I really need to figure out how the quoting posts thing works but anyway @twistyizzy yes I do see private education as on a par with clothes and holidays and cars.
Some people in certain sections of society would never even consider state education and for those people I think it is a lifestyle choice. My colleagues think I am odd for not wanting to send my kids to private school. 'Why would you not want the best for them?' Etc etc
I think people panic a bit about state education and fear it without giving it a chance and that private education is a bit fetishised and actually not really worth the huge sums of money for most kids who would do however they were going to do anyway. Small class sizes for instance have been shown in educational research not to have much bearing on outcomes.
But that's just my personal opinion and were I to meet you IRL I would politely keep it to myself.

I really need to figure out how the quoting posts thing works

It’s the button on the bottom left of a post.

If we met IRL you wouldn't know I send DD private because I don't go around bragging about it 😊.

I'm on the app on my phone so that might be the problem as those options don't show up for me

There are Mumsnet who collect handbags at eye watering prices. They say they're an investment. That's beyond my ken but it pleases them.

There's always going to be people poorer than me and people wealthier. I don't give it head room

@ThePure
If private medicine did not exist those Drs would put all their time and energy into NHS work and the NHS would improve.

I agree with some of your post but this bit is just incorrect. NHS consultants get paid for a set amount of work. They aren't going to work more for free just because they don't do private work. Especially in this day and age where the Trusts are really changing the culture of the patients being the doctors individual responsibility, to "the Trust's patients."

The thing about drs not accessing patients records really depends on how your private practice works, whether you employ a secretary to chase these things etc. Some of the big FT hospitals are actively encouraging their NHS drs to take up a private practice within the Trusts premises so the NHS takes a cut.

I literally am an NHS Consultant so I know how we are paid. I get paid 10 sessions by the NHS and all the work I do is for the NHS. Some of my colleagues work eg 6 sessions NHS and 4 sessions private or even 3 sessions NHS and 7 sessions private. If private practice didn't exist these consultants would be putting their time and energy into the NHS. The NHS would pay them they would not be working for free. The NHS would spend less money on locum fees by having more regular Drs.

I also know how things used to be ie that consultants really did usually work full time for the NHS and put all their effort into it. Many of my older colleagues retired after 40+ years having never worked a day in private practice. In medical specialties this was usual (surgical maybe not so much)

I still think my patients are my patients and I take personal responsibility for them getting the best care that I can achieve for them.

My experience of doctors is that most are lovely, but I went to university with lots in the 1970s and IME, few of them were any brighter than the people doing humanities degrees. Back then, anyone doing a law or PPE degree probably had more A level points. Doctoring as a profession has been escalated to sainthood status, and doesn't merit it.

I can understand why you hold those ideals. People can find themselves in difficulties, though. A single dad/mum who works as a surgeon needs good childcare to continue to work. Cost of nurseries/ nannies/ private school is going up. It's either take on some private work or quit. A lot of doctors use private for wrap around care. Now the government wants to make that even more expensive. Somethings got to give. People are human.

@ThePure

Maybe it's just an experience thing and where you work. Practically none of my older colleagues worked solely in the NHS. All of them worked 10PAs and had a private practice on top. Most of them retired from the NHS and still work privately. Many of the younger consultants work PT and supplement their income with research PAs or other work. I just don't think it's quite as simple as you paint it.

@saltinesandcoffeecups You wish. They still rely on A&E.

I mean, really, anyone who is currently happy paddling along in a life raft is an absolute idiot. 🤣

They are when the boat they just jumped off of is sinking.

Your description not mine.

Of course, tou can pretend to yourself you have a life raft if you really want, @saltinesandcoffeecups , if that makes you happy.

The NHS wastes SO much money though. And many of their policies make no sense or are based on short termism. The NHS needs to change rather than complain about people turning to private healthcare because its so bad. Private healthcare isn't what is making the NHS so bad. It would be better to focus time and energy on all of the ridiculous wasting of money that goes on. I have a disabled DC and the examples I've seen on money being wasted is jaw-dropping.

Just one small example. My DC had an operation. Needed a wheelchair but that isn't provided on the NHS so I had to pay £400 to hire one for a few months. Thankfully we can afford it. DC then progressed to using crutches. These are provided on the NHS. When DC didn't need them any more I tried to return them. No one would take them. I tried for weeks and weeks and there seemed to be no system for returning them so they could be used by someone else. I ended up giving them to an NHS physio so at least they would hopefully be reused. It was madness.

My private breast cancer consultant does 2 days private work. She was explaining how frustrated she was with the wasted resources in the NHS. One example she gave was that during covid her NHS hospital stopped doing immediate breast reconstructions after a mastectomy (because "covid"). She said an immediate reconstruction takes less than half an hour longer in surgery. So these women had to wait a year or so for reconstruction. In the meantime many got complications (eg sometimes they have to leave a load of loose skin hanging around and this creates infection risk/pain) requiring more treatment. They then needed an entirely new operation a year later, taking up much more hospital time and resources. The outcomes were also worse than an immediate reconstruction so the initial idea of saving 30 minutes in theatre actually caused hours if not days of further treatment that wouldn't have been needed.

I'm sure loads of people have similar examples and I'm sure these are not the worst wastes of resources by any means. But I can understand both doctors and patients opting out of staying in a system that is so self-defeating.

Why should we as taxpayers be happy to keep pumping in money into an organisation that is systemically wasteful and nothing ever seems to change? The bureaucracy is eye-wateringly wasteful.

People turn to private healthcare soley because the NHS is so bad. It's not bad soley because people turn to private healthcare.