Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

Totally agree re supermarket!

I'm a parent of an autistic child. Clearly it's better for the child to be clothed but this is incredibly common and I get why they just wanted to leave things be because the resulting meltdowns are incredibly difficult in a public place. This is likely to be sensory processing which is very difficult to control. I have another friend whose child was permanently naked. He did eventually stop stripping off as he got older but she never forced the issue. If it were me, I'd avoid being in that situation but understand why they feel they should be able to go out and have a meal too. Very difficult.

YABU.

I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child...

She had explained (perhaps not in a way everyone would understand) that if she had put the t-shirt on, it would have triggered a meltdown. Maybe you aren't aware of the difference between a NT child screaming and an autistic meltdown, which is fine, but to clarify, it is unlikely that she would have been able to "try" to put the t-shirt on and then stop and he would have stopped screaming. If he had been pushed into meltdown, then it is very difficult and time consuming to reverse that and would have totally disrupted the family's meal and potentially others' meals as well.

Many autistic children would already be finding the environment of a busy buffet restaurant to be difficult/overstimulating. If he was hungry, it might have been worse too.

The family probably had four options really.

1. Try to put t-shirt on, trigger meltdown. Not ideal.
2. Let child be. Explain to staff/other patrons if necessary.
3. Take child outside and try to calm them enough to get the t-shirt back on. Might have worked, might have not, would have likely taken a huge amount of time and might have only been successful until the child got back into the busy, bright, loud, strong-smelling environment of the buffet and then you might get meltdown or t-shirt removal again and be back to 0.
4. Abandon meal and take everyone home.

Seems to me like she took the best option for everyone. And was probably upset about it later anyway.

Imagine if every time you tried to go to a restaurant something like this happened.

...as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant.

This is the kind of NT-affirming ridiculousness that is frustrating if you do deal with anything like this. "Not appropriate" is such a non-reason. It's a child, nobody cares if they are topless. There is nothing to be offended by. They are not hurting anybody. There is no danger to them (maybe if they are going up to the buffet while topless, but perhaps an adult could get the rest of his food, as a compromise).

Sure, it is a social norm that people including children should wear clothes in a restaurant, but social norms don't mean a great deal to a lot of autistic people, and if he needed to take off his top but otherwise was calm and non-disruptive, then I think it would be totally fair to make an exception in this case, while still having the general rule and starting with the expectation that everyone should be clothed.

If it was a little baby say 6 months old that was topless, do you think the same rules should apply? What if their top got totally soaked by a spilled drink, for example? I think most people in that situation would be totally happy for the baby to be topless on the grounds that they don't really understand the social norm, it's not causing any harm and there isn't anything suitable for them to wear. It may be that an autistic 8yo doesn't understand the social norm and their top feels as uncomfortable as a wringing wet one would be to a baby.

I won't be leaving a review, I can see both sides but I don't think the staff did anything particularly wrong.

Whilst it is a tricky situation, I'm inclined to agree with this.
Regardless of their personal situation, it's widely accepted there are social norms that people - including children - should follow when out in public. One of them is being fully clothed in a restaurant.

The mother sounds very entitled. Yes, everyone should be accepted - but that doesn't mean people can behave however they like. Whether the child is topless and quiet or fully clothed and screaming the place down, neither behaviour is acceptable for a restaurant. The mother should know this.

Outdoors fine. Indoors no, uou keep your top on.
I would find it a bit grim to be sat next to a topless child in a restaurant setting.

I really wouldn’t be bothered by a topless child In a restaurant. Especially once the mother had explained he’s autistic and putting his top on would result in a meltdown. The restaurant should have let them be.

What's with the sarcasm? I think it's a fair thread.

It's unfortunate that the restaurant staff turned something harmless into a point of conflict instead of accepting the mum's explanation.

Heaven forbid an 8 year old boy ever goes swimming with their friends… a scenario where they would be less clothed and have even less dignity preserved!

While I get etiquette is he should’ve been dressed, I really don’t see the harm in this and the Mum was right it does feel like an easy solution to allow the boy to have a meal with his family.

She was wrong to ask you to complain though.

I can't see the problem with an 8 year old with his top off. It wouldnt put me off my meal. I'm guessing he has sensory issues and doesn't like eating fully clothed. I'm on his parents side here.

That's a really fair point that you and PP have raised re hot food and drink. Who would be liable for a burns injury?

How would you have felt if it was a 52 year old woman in a big coat with the hood up? Do you think the restaurant would have asked her to take her coat off?

One sort of ND is OK and the other is not? Why?

it’s the idea that you started this not wanting a bun thread about something that always causes division. why? because we are talking about children. Children with SEN.

and fact you changed name just to start thread indicates you knew full well

Who would be liable if I went in to the restaurant in a spaghetti strappy top and a pair of cheeky shorts?

Whoever that would be, would also be liable in this case.

This a hundred percent. It’s not like the restaurant was The Ritz or it was a young pre teen girl which would raise different issues

I agree with this. I'd much rather the child were happy and eating quietly than screaming - and I'm really not bothered by a nine year old with no shirt.

yes starting puberty would be the marker of common sense in this scenario

I'd have to have watched the staff physically beating someone before I complained on their behalf tbh.

I wouldn't be bothered about a topless kid but I'd think the parents probably need to get on top of this or get used to getting booted out of restaurants

Sorry, are you joking?

You don't think there's any difference between a swimming pool and a restaurant?

I don't think it's appropriate for a child to be sitting topless in a restaurant. My opinion doesn't matter anyway. That's not what the proprietors of the restaurant want and it's their prerogative.
As a member of school staff, I can positively assure you that wouldn't be allowed in a school, even for an SEN child. I point this out as schools are obviously required to be inclusive but there are always some lines that have to be drawn. Therefore I wouldn't expect a restaurant to have to put up with it.

I'm not sexualising it, at all.

But there people in this world who exploit children, and look at them in that way, and protecting our children by covering them up is something I wouldn't hesitate to do.

I don't feel comfortable seeing toddlers in tiny bikinis either. For the same thing. Because other people sexualise children. Not me.

I may have a bit of a bias point of view on this as I was sexually assaulted at a very young age.

But please don't accuse ME of being weird for being concerned that children's flesh is on show.
It's something I feel incredibly strongly about.

Personally, I would be more upset with screaming / misbehaving children rather than one that is sitting quietly albeit half undressed.

However, surely any child needs to learn what is acceptable otherwise things will get harder. So, an 8 YO - fine. 18 YO - is that still acceptable? 78 YO ? I don’t know what the answer is - so probably not helpful

ditto

at family meals my focus is squarely on enjoying a meal with my family.

noisy child running around would impact that
child sitting down not wearing a t shirt would not

perhaps if you were the type of family that sat there in stony silence… then it would pee you off. Mainly i suspect just for something to talk about with your family