Torn on this. Autistic little lad in restaurant.

[EggsBenedick]

Hi all,

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread. I'm genuinely interested to hear people's views on this, as the family in question have asked to put in a complaint to the restaurant along with them.

We were eating an all you can eat type place, mostly Indian / Bangladeshi cuisine. I've added this as this may be relevant from a culture perspective.

It's a nice place, not somewhere too posh but not your run of the mill everything you can eat for a tenna place. Was quite busy in there too.

Seated next to us was a family of 3, with a little lad about aged 8 or 9. After he came back with his plate of food he took his jumper and T shirt off. People were looking over but the parents didnt seem bothered by it.

A member of staff came over and asked the parents if the boy could put his top back on. The member of staff was pretty polite initially. The parents refused to ask the boy to put his top back on. The staff member then went to get another member of staff, who came over and said he just put his top back on during the meal or they would have to leave. The mum then said to the waiter 'if we put his top on he will just scream the place down and ruin everything for everyone'. And explained that the child is autistic.

The parents made no effort to put the top back on the boy.
The staff member said to the family that they would have to eat quickly and leave. By this point the mother was visibly upset and indirectly spoke to us saying 'I wish my son could just be accepted.'

The boy was completely topless in the middle of the restaurant with lots of other diners around.
They had a few mouthfuls and came over to our table and asked if we would leave a Google review complaining about their time at the restaurant and how they aren't inclusive or family friendly.

AIBU to be torn in this? I'm genuinely intrigued to hear people's opinions on this. I could see how difficult it was for the mum. But on one hand I think the parents should've at least tried to put the T shirt on the child as it's not appropriate for a child of that age to be topless in a restaurant. But, the child shouldn't be confined to their home to eat. I would be concerned about strangers / men looking at my semi - naked child most of all.

I don't think I am going to do a review as I can see it from the restaurants POV also. I said to the mum that I was sorry she had such a stressful time. She clearly needed support. The dad didn't say or do a lot which was most helpful!

While I sympathise with the parents, turning a blind eye to a topless 8 year old is a slippery slope to topless men expecting to be catered for because give people an inch and they’ll take a mile. What if the child didn’t want to be bottoms ? Underwear ? Topless is harmless imho but I think it’s easier to have a rule that says clothes must be worn.

I wouldn’t write a review of the restaurant who have a right to expect patrons to wear a top.

I firstly want to make clear that I am not wanting this to be a bunfight or an ableist type of thread.

sure OP

i would not have been bothered in the slightest

“No Shirt, No Shoes: No Service”

Regardless of how acceptable it is to be shirtless at the pool, beach, playground, etc a restaurant expects its clients to be clothed. That’s a reasonable social expectation.

If the child was unable to wear a top in public, a restaurant wasn’t really the appropriate venue for him.

I know it’s so hard for parents of neurodivergent children; I have two myself. We had to constantly manage, adjust, rearrange plans and be alert to accommodate our children’s needs around a world that doesn’t easily fit around them. Some things we just didn’t do until they were older or we had babysitters.

It’s a pretty basic rule in all restaurants (except a few beach places) that diners be fully clothed. If their child is incapable of keeping that rule then he shouldn’t be in there and they shouod have taken him out. Autism is not a free pass to break rules. If their son wanted to throw plates or wee around the table, or dine in an adults-only venue, would it be ableist to object? What if my autistic child, who is super sensitive to noise and conflict (but perfectly capable of wearing clothes and eating quietly in a restaurant) finds their autistic child’s behaviour triggering? Where does it end? I’ve taken my child out of many venues when it became appropriate to do so and I’d never demand the world reshape itself to our demands. Cinemas and theatres are too loud and triggering for my son, should I tell them all to turn it down to our preferred volume?

Think the mum asking you to badmouth the restaurant online was really nasty of her. I’ve not got much sympathy tbh, they seem quite happy to upset the restaurant staff and make the other diners uncomfortable and damage someone’s business, all to defend their son’s ‘right’ to do whatever he wants wherever he wants.

If I was you I would leave a review but I’d say that the staff dealt with an awkward situation politely and professionally and that they were inclusive.

Topless lad isn’t going to offend anyone

They did, really. They allowed them to finish their meal albeit asked them to do it promptly which I think is fair. Yes he's only 8 but won't be forever. Do restaurants have to set an age for being clothed, and what might that age be?

Where will it end? Trousers off?
Yep. See David Potts (Celeb BB winner). not envy.

i don’t have a SEN child (well mild and controlled adhd) and i doubt i’d have even noticed

I am autistic and have an autistic son. I would have been uncomfortable with a topless child of that age in the restaurant. On top of everything, what if something hot spilled on him and caused a burn? I think it sounds like the restaurant did their best to cope with the situation. I would maybe leave a review saying that I'd been there and think the restaurant did their best to accommodate health and safety requirements despite having a customer unhappy as a result, which to me is in their favour.

I kinda agree. Autistic or not he's going to have to either learn at some point that there are social conventions that need to be followed so when is the right time?

Me either, I might think it’s an unusual scenario but wouldn’t be fussed by it and certainly wouldn’t leave a negative review. Many shops and restaurants don’t accept topless males so I can see their point of view too.

I don’t have strong feelings about the clothing issue but I don’t think the mum should have asked you to get involved and ‘pick a side’.

Inside yes he should be fully clothed- outside seating wouldn’t bother me.

Would a 14 year old with no top on be ok? 16? 18? 20? Who decides where the line is drawn? I can understand the restaurant’s point of view even if I don’t think it would personally bother me if there was a topless 8 year old.

And the mother was cheeky as fuck trying to get you to write a negative review for her.

I totally sympathise, it’s bloody hard having an autistic child. My dd was frequently naked when younger and still likes to be now (age 10) she often stripped off in public, I was the parent chasing the naked child across a park!

She has tried to strip off when eating out but she was told it wasn’t appropriate and she had to wear clothing when out in public. If she did strip and wouldn’t get redressed or allow us to redress her or compromise and wear, say one of our jumpers or jackets then one of us (dh or myself) would leave with her while the other stayed with our other children.

Dd now wears vests under her clothes in case she wants to remove her jumper or t-shirt and then she is still covered and 9 times out of 10 her socks and shoes come off but she isn’t totally naked anywhere and it isn’t uncomfortable for anyone around us.

In your example, I totally understand how easy it is to just think ‘oh it’s fine, he isn’t harming anyone’ because he isn’t and he’s a little boy but people wear clothing out in public, that’s just the way it is regardless of anyone’s needs.
My dd goes out dressed like absolute chaos sometimes with what she chooses but she needs to feel comfortable to avoid the stripping off and we’ve made adjustments with the vests and allowing the removal of shoes. We implemented this from being very little though, I know this would be a huge struggle to start now with her at age 10.

I don’t know what to say about the staff’s way of dealing with it but think about it this way, if I allowed my daughter to strip in public as she did when little and we had never tackled it or intervened, what happens as she gets to puberty stage and begins developing breasts? It’s also about teaching our vulnerable children about their safety as we have had to do with dd due to the way she is with nudity.

Had the restaurant asked the family to stop their child stimming or eat with cutlery if they couldn’t then they are BU as it is not as simple as saying ‘hey could you stop doing that?’

I totally understand how that mum felt in that moment though and I would have offered her some support and shared how we tackled it with our daughter but I wouldn’t be making a joint complaint.

It wouldn’t particularly have bothered me but the parents do need to work on this. Eating in a restaurant with no top is hazardous to the child.

Would a 14 year old with no top on be ok? 16? 18? 20? Who decides where the line is drawn?

common sense. at those ages you list they’re all going through or have gone through puberty

Mum of 2 DS both autistic. I always explain when I book go into a restaurant or activity that my ds is autistic and can we their we sit in a corner somewhere, he can't use cutlery and also went through a faze of only eating from a certain plate and his food can not touch. If the place couldn't accommodate us then that's totally fine. My son is also adhd and has touretts so over the years my requests have changed. If I go to a restaurant with him now, he can sit anyway, eat off any plate, doesn't have a meltdown if food touches and can sort of use cutlery. I do have to tell the place he has touretts and so best to keep people easily offended away but I wouldn't leave because of his touretts but also wouldn't go when loads of kids would be their. He's 15 now and 6ft 2" so a well built lad and if left alone is absolutely fine, just if a kids starts screeching he'll start ticking.
The restaurant done nothing wrong, the mum should of spoken to then first.

The restaurant have a right to enforce their dress policy. I wouldn’t be fazed by this at all but the restaurant clearly thought it was an issue.

I think it’s very relevant that it was an Asian restaurant OP. If it was a posh French restaurant, I suspect the parents and some posters here would be singing a very different tune.

yes, I agree, I think. While it might not bother a lot of people, including me, tbh, for an 8 year old to be topless, it is for the restaurant to set what is acceptable in their establishment. Exactly the same as clubs that say no trainers, or posh restaurants that specify no shorts, no children at all, no dogs, no stag parties, whatever. Whether that be clothes or certain behaviours.

Saying because this 1 restaurant didn't allow a topless child (although they clearly did, it's not as if they chucked him out, they just asked them to eat quickly and leave which seems a fair compromise) results in said child being forevermore "confined to their home to eat" is a complete exaggeration. They can eat at friends and family's homes, have picnics or takeaways, eat outside a pub/restaurant in the summer, go to cheaper fast food places, and tbh, there might be plenty of restaurants that would be completely fine with it, particularly if it's explained in advance. Not being welcome to eat half-naked in this particular restaurant isn't some gross breach of his human rights.

I wouldn't leave a review based on her experience. I do however find it strange that you think people would sexualise this!

Oh FFS.
Did he also remove his pants and run around starkers? Was a soiled nappy left lying in the buffet? Honestly the sight of a young child with sensory needs who self regulates in this way is not fucking offensive. What's that got to do culturally with the restaurant being Indian/Bangladeshi? Seriously..... Indian people have disabilities too. IMO it's the ignorance and lack of self awareness of some ppl that causes a problem. Would ear defenders, chew toy, soft toy be seen as offensive.

I'm a bit torn, so he was wearing a t shirt but took it off? Why couldn't the parents ask him to put it on? If he can't eat with a t shirt on I would think the parents should have asked if the restaurant were OK with it before ordering.

well no surprises there then

the OP has only ever posted on mumsnet once. Starting this thread.

or name changed

doesnt want a bunfight my ass

But children enter puberty at different ages. So are you saying the rule should be puberty? Beginning or end? Again, who decides? Does the same go for girls? Subjective, case by case rules are a nightmare for businesses, I wouldn’t want to get into that minefield either if I was the restaurant staff.