To want every woman in England to vote Tory at the GE

[Hurrydash]

Wow. I started a thread with 1000 posts on a topic in 12 hours and Mumsnet got ‘full’

One more off the bucket list!

So MN told me to start a new thread if I wanted to post anything else. I didn’t particularly but there were some queries raised in the first thread.

Thank you to all first thread posters, even the small minority who were abusive to me and/or my opinions. Coherent arguments may have been more persuasive.

I have read many posts, but not all. I do have work to do!

In answer to some queries:

Yes I was drunk - explains GR typo in the first title not GE. Although that could well have been a Freudian slip too.

I am English living in England.

I’m not an entitled git living in a Stately home eating cucumber sandwiches. Like most I have been hit very hard by mortgage rate and utility price rises.

I restricted my request to English voters because I don’t understand other UK countries voter motivations.

a) Scotland has voted in a party which in my opinion is morally bankrupt (maybe financially too?) and totally incompetent.

b) Wales has elected a party which means when they go for a drive they’ll likely be overtaken by cyclists - maybe very fit joggers too

c) I genuinely don’t understand Northern Ireland politics. Didn’t even know there were no Tories there till reading it on one of the posts.

Totally get why so many won’t vote Tory, but for me freedom of speech is a die in a ditch issue.

Here’s what Angela Eagle is reported to have said will be in the Labour manifesto:

“• Strengthening the law so anti-LGBT+ hate crimes are treated as aggravated offenses”

For this I read anyone stating biological facts risks being banged up. JKR no doubt top of their hit list.

So give me another option to stop this madness other than vote Tory.

If all posters on the first thread had said they weren’t going to vote Labour due to their threat to women’s rights maybe Labour would have paused for thought about their policies. But seems very many women will vote Labour anyway so they don’t have to worry.

Very very happy to vote Labour and kick the Tories out if they will commit unequivocally to protect women’s rights, parents rights and freedom of speech. Otherwise not a chance.

Quite. Considering trans people only make up about 0.5% of the population it’s highly unlikely most people will meet more than 1 or 2 in their lifetime, much less have to share a bathroom anyway.

🤦‍♀️

Huh? Your maths is way off. How many people do you think you meet in your lifetime? You think around 400 max?

1 in 200 is a very large number of people to be legislating that they can bypass normal rules about single sex spaces.

I’ve asked this of many people, including Tory supporters, and not one has answered.

There is no such legislation. And Labour has been very clear there won’t be on their watch. They’re telling you what you want to hear but you refuse to believe them.

No we don't have that legislation, although trans activists will argue endlessly that that is exactly what the equality act says. (And will be believed by many service providers who then act as if this were the law)

What Labour have said has been crafted to sound reassuring while promising nothing. Too many of the PLP have a track record of vilifying GC beliefs for me to trust them at this point. But if their manifesto is water tight you never know I might be able to vote for them again.

if their manifesto is water tight you never know I might be able to vote for them again.

And in the mean time, you are happy to continue as it is.

I can only assume waiting lists, crumbling schools and public services, increasing poverty, court backlogs etc don't affect you and your family

@ATerrorofLeftovers the OP is encouraging women to vote Tory because of Labour’s position on Women’s rights. I amongst others are wondering what actions the Tories have taken to safeguard women’s rights in the last fourteen years. I don’t see this as whatabouttery but more as a justification for their view.

I think perhaps @ATerrorofLeftovers you missed my posts earlier that detailed a number of ways that Labour will safeguard women and children (and men). Although it wil be a challenge given the state of the government finances, since the current government have spent loads on enriching their mates.

Here are some examples of areas where massive improvements could be made.

State education
Criminal justice system.
Health and social care.

For the vast majority of people those improvements will have a much more significant on their lives than whether or not a small number of people are defined as male or female.

Well said Jess

It is whataboutery because we all know that the Tory government has repeatedly taken steps to reduce the safety of women, children (and men).

Does partying whilst one could not visit dying relatives fit into that?

Absolutely not voting Tory.

Exactly.

I didn’t miss your posts. Hence my engagement with you on earlier posts.

To reiterate what I said upthread. All this is sorely needed and I want it too.

However, none of this will work or be anywhere near enough if they still refuse to unequivocally commit to safeguarding the rights of biological women in key arenas.

For the vast majority of people those improvements will have a much more significant on their lives than whether or not a small number of people are defined as male or female.

In a way, I admire your optimism. I might even have shared it a couple of decades ago. But I’m older and wiser now, and like I said before, without the fundamental underpinning of a clear definition of what a woman is, none of this will work and more egregious harms will happen.

I mean, it’s not as though the women’s movement has won the struggle, is it? We’re decades in and we still don’t have equal pay, parity of status or anything like the privilege hogged by males. Yet they want us to give up what we do have? When it goes to the detriment of our safety and equality??

Come on. I’m not voting for that. I’d have to be an utter chump.

Homely, what are you trying to achieve with the stuff about partying? Are you seriously thinking I or anyone will say it was a-ok? It wasn’t. Clearly. Surely that doesn’t need saying.

None of that means I want Labour to shaft me as well, though.

Frankly, Labour should know better. They should BE better

They’re supposed to champion the underdog. The oppressed. Those who are vulnerable. Like women and children, rather than men. That’s what they’re meant to stand for.

Have women reached full equality such that Labour feel they can turn to subjugating them again in order to lift up (largely middle class) males?

So I think we are in agreement that the actions that Labour will take from their first day in government will make a massive difference to the safeguarding of women, children (and men) which has been sorely neglected for years by the current government.

It might be helpful to focus on the positive changes that the next government will make rather than worrying about a small detail in one area of safeguarding.

@ATerrorofLeftovers did you perhaps miss my post earlier explaining some of the areas in which we can expect the next Labour government to champion the underdog and make things better for the vulnerable?
Areas such as, the criminal justice system, healthcare, social services and education that have been neglected by the current government who have focussed on partying and enriching their mates.

Apologies. I thought I had been clear, but I can’t have been.

No. We are NOT in agreement.

Labour may say they want to do those things. But they won’t be able to achieve them while they hamstring themselves (and women and children) by their ridiculous and outrageous refusal to guarantee adequate safeguards in pace for biological women.

It is not a ‘small detail’. If you think it is, you’re not paying attention. It is foundational to all the rest.

How could I have missed it when I replied to you?

In the FPTP system there are only ever 2 parties that can win any given general election (well 1 party this year). So it is important to consider the alternative.

Partying illegally is a sure sign of how much the current government care about safeguarding the vulnerable in a time of national crisis.

So you know that Labour will be better than the current government, and will take important steps to safeguard the vulnerable, and yet are still complaining that Labour need to be better.

I'm afraid the apparent lack of logic in your posts has left me very confused.

Its perfectly possible to invest and support the criminal justice, education, health and social care systems and still have some ambiguity around the definition of man and woman.
In most people's lives that ambiguity will be utterly irrelvant as it is today.

For example it makes not one jot of difference to my dd how the Prime Minister defines what a woman is.
What makes a significant difference is that her cardiologist retired many years early from the NHS and so is not there to treat her this year, when she urgently needs his care. He retired because he felt he could no longer work in a system that was falling apart and treating him badly.

Well this is what I was talking about many pages ago. Your logic only makes sense if you think that a Labour and a Conservative govt will perform vastly differently. I think the new Labour government will spend cautiously, I suspect all these underfunded services are in for a nasty shock if they expect a massive influx of cash from no11 in the Autumn. If Labour economic policies were still those of Corbyn and McDonnell that would give me more of a dilemma (but obviously would turn off a different set of voters).

Personally my preference would be to vote for a left leaning party, but if all the left leaning parties have gone batshit crazy, adopted a cult like belief system and are torching women's rights, I'll pass.

Labour could accept the same overall spending as the current government's plans but target they money very differently, for example it might not be necessary to give so much to Frank Hester in return for his donations.

Equally when people who work in education, health, the criminal justice system and so on feel valued and appreciated by the government and that government doesn't change its mind on what it wants from week to week, it is perfectly possible that productivity will rise.