To ask what you are doing to raise good men?

[HuckleberryBlackcurrant]

I have 2 sons, 7 and 4.

I read so many posts on here involving men who are useless, misogynistic, abusive etc. I am thankful my husband is NOT like this, but I have been thinking a lot about what steps I can take to ensure I raise kind, respectful and safe men. I would be so ashamed of one of my sons ended up treating a woman poorly.

Obviously an advantage is having their Dad as a positive male role model.

Other things I have been doing are teaching them to clean up after themselves (clearing dishes, picking up dirty clothes, wiping up wee splatters). But is there more I could and should be doing?

I've read widely on it. I have two boys, never really expected to and I don't have any brothers, just one male cousin. I went to a tiny primary school where there were basically 4 girls in my class and that was it. So I didn't really know much about boys. My mum was a primary teacher though, and she worked in some tough schools - she had a lot of wise words about teaching boys which included don't try and be their friend, treat them with respect and demand respect in return and let them run and run and run some more every playtime! And don't treat boys and girls as if they are the same, because they aren't. You can have the same expectations, sure, but you won't necessarily get there by the same route with each sex.

If you want to learn more about the biology, psychology and sociology of how boys become men, I would recommend:

Raising Boys, by Steve Biddulph - he gets a lot of stick for what he says about boys especially needing mums to stay home, dads to be present for them and not to be put in childcare, but I think he's spot on about boys development, peer pressure, where the risk taking and aggression comes from.
He'll Be OK, by Celia Lashlie - excellent study of boy to man development and identifying what the real drivers of boy behaviour are. The author was a single mum of a boy, and worked in the criminal justice system. She did a massive research project, going round NZ / OZ talking directly to teenage boys in schools, clubs etc, finding out what really makes them tick , what influences them - and what they don't tell their mums, and why!
Of Boys and Men by Richard Reeves - the recent bestseller on this and it's fascinating, on how certain groups of boys (young, poor, black boys in the US and young, poor, white boys in the UK) are falling behind on all the important indicators while girls surge ahead. He's on a lot of podcasts as well, well worth a listen. Lots of the biology / psychology behind how boys develop into men, and why the whole 'toxic masculinity' trope is so damaging to them.

One thing he advocates for is keeping boys back a year in school, routinely, to allow them to catch up with girls in terms of their organisational / executive functioning skills (apparently in elite US private schools this is the norm). I really regret that we didn't do this with our oldest who is currently the youngest in his class - he has always struggled to keep up with his peers (and he has a lot of girl friends) in terms of organisation, meeting deadlines, taking responsibility. He's 16/17 and starting to catch up, but it has been a struggle to keep his confidence up over the years - and he's an intelligent kid with supportive parents. I can totally see why any less able, less supported boys would just give up and check out.

DS1 has always had lots of girl friends. He enjoys female company, and his gang are a pretty feisty bunch - they don't take any shit from him.

As a woman, I don't take any shit from men in general. We have open discussions about consent, behaviour and Andrew Tate.

And yes, they have a brilliant dad, and lots of good male role models in our family and friends circle.

Oh come on

EVERY person (male or female) is a potential ... something: thief, bully, abuser whatever.

Every human being potentially could be evil, thankfully most aren't.

Specifying that all men are potential racists is just silly.

Ensuring their father is an influence in their lives as far as possible.

Imo the father's influence is often the problem. You only have to read the Relationships board to see that. Fathers who treat their children's mothers badly, who don't do their fair share at home (either with domestic work or parenting), and some who perpetuate ridiculously old-fashioned stereotypes about boys and girls, even when the mother does not (e.g. objecting if their pre-schooler ds gets his nails painted or plays with a 'girls'' toy).

My sons are similar age to yours. I do the same in getting them to pick up after themselves. If they ask for something that they can do themselves, eg ask for a glass of water I tell them to do it rather than do it for them.

I also ask them to help me with things regularly like, 'can you help me carry this bag please it's so heavy and I can't do it by myself', opening the front door and turning the alarm off etc. that kind of thing. I read it's good to get them to feel good about themselves for helping.

I read in an article by a psychologist about raising boys that it's really important they understated that you are not just their mum. Someone who is just there to cater to their needs. That you are an employee, a boss, a wife, a sister, a daughter, a women in her own right.

Basically making sure they are aware that women and not just there to serve and cater to them and them alone. As this is what many many men are programmed to believe.

My son has two sisters which has naturally clarified his understanding !!

He also goes to a school with fabulous values so is not just working from one "home" viewpoint.

I've a sixteen and ten year old boys.
Their role models (father, uncles, extended friends and family) are good men.

Be open with challenges that exist and your experiences, my elder son was so shocked when I brought up the change of law to rape in marriage was a recent change in Irish Law. That women couldn't own property, and where legally discriminated against in his grandparents time.

Keep communicating, listen to their concerns, their worries. If they don't know who they are then they will look for guidance elsewhere.

Be the guidance, reassure them not knowing the right thing to do isn't a failure. Not asking for help is. Teach them to be proud of themselves and to be allies and to those with quieter voices. It is a difficult place for all young people at the moment.

Got my son away from his abusive dad and brought step dad into his life who is an incredible role model.

Well I wouldn't have married me. Fortunately DH saw something in me and we're good together.

We didn't have sons, just girls who were largely raised by DH so by a man. They're good well adjusted young women, married with their own families and still when they visit they're daddies girls. They've been raised with the idea they can do anything they set their mind to.

I can't help but feel that treating our sons like potential abusers, patronising them and applying far more stringent rules to them than their sisters could be counter-productive and feed into some of the culture which has made the likes of Andrew Tate so popular.

In my view all kids should be raised to help with chores, do things for themselves, build their independence and help out their siblings. You see all the time on Mumsnet that this doesn't happen and 9 year old Alice can't make a bowl of cereal and her twin brother Timmy doesn't know where the sock drawer is.

Once they become teenagers things change and their peers have a large influence on them - both male and female. This rhetoric that girls are angelic and lovely and selfless and meek and vulnerable really isn't how I remember it. Teenage girls are often horrible and the boys are all too aware of this. This is when a lot of the bravado and toxicity begins to seep out.

Boys should be given the space to grow up, to make mistakes, to fend for themselves, and to have someone who loves them to turn to when they need it.

I also think parents should remember that young people see things from a young person's perspective and have a real instinct for any perceived unfairness. So if they see their father going out earning the money, their mother staying at home all day and then suggesting husband pulls his weight when he gets home, this maybe isn't going to have the desired effect.

This rhetoric that girls are angelic and lovely and selfless and meek and vulnerable really isn't how I remember it

They're bloody awful, bullying and shit stirring then whenit goes pear shaped smile sweetly and say who me?

I think girls often play on the fact that their peer group of boys are often less mature and easily led which enables them to stir up the trouble and sit back and enjoy the show. This certainly seems to be the case with young women.

Some very wise words here.