To ask what you are doing to raise good men?

[HuckleberryBlackcurrant]

I have 2 sons, 7 and 4.

I read so many posts on here involving men who are useless, misogynistic, abusive etc. I am thankful my husband is NOT like this, but I have been thinking a lot about what steps I can take to ensure I raise kind, respectful and safe men. I would be so ashamed of one of my sons ended up treating a woman poorly.

Obviously an advantage is having their Dad as a positive male role model.

Other things I have been doing are teaching them to clean up after themselves (clearing dishes, picking up dirty clothes, wiping up wee splatters). But is there more I could and should be doing?

I have boys and find these threads utterly devoid of all critical thinking.
Unfortunately feminism has become embroiled with othering including our own male children.

Absolutely, and it’s worrying.

What do you mean?

This only works when the dad is decent though.

I'm a teacher. I've had dad refuse to hug their young sons when they pick them up from school because 'boys don't do that'; I've had them try and withdraw their sons from the dance element of PE because 'dancing is for girls'.

At the moment i have a dad who is trying to remove his son from PSHE lessons because we're making him and other boys 'soft' and not teaching them how to be men.

Many dads still want their sons to use their fists rather than their words to resolve problems in school.

I was a single parent and my son is now in his 20s. He's never met his father.

He's a decent man because I raised him and my daughter in the same way. To treat others with respect and to know that I wasn't their maid.

Some women I know openly admit that they didn't require their sons to do anything domestic chore related at home.

My son has grown up with no male role models, just him and me.

I've taught him kindness, manners, to listen.

Also to pull his weight, how to do things around the house, and not expect to be thanked for it, it's what you do for your household.

He doesn't 'get' male banter and how men talk when in a group. He just doesn't be around friends who talk or act in a certain way around women. He is 22 now and a kind, hardworking respectful individual and everyone who knows him has told me this.

Quite frankly you are over-estimating the influence of mothers on men and underestimating the effect of society.

Your charming helpful, well mannered young children are going to do what mummy wants because they love mummy above all else at that stage.

They will reach a stage where your love doesn't matter that much to them - in fact they are trying to get away from it and other people's praise and influence is much much larger.

If everything they read, watch, see and hear around them from media sources, their peers and the way that they are treated in society is negative then your waning influence as their mum may not always be enough to balance it out.

I would really like adults to treat all children better than we do in the uk, with less criticism and more investment. I would also like to hear fewer negative sexist comments about boys and men. When they hear that, especially from women it doesn't make them want to change, it makes them resentful.

You're on mumsnet, you should know there's no such thing as a good man. Do your best, it's all you can do. Remind them that no matter what some will still be offended by them. Simple example DH was a sexist and misogynist for holding the door open for a young woman, he'd actually opened it for me.

Treat others as you want to be treated but don't be a doormat. Listen. No sex until after marriage or deciding to settle down. As a young man he could find himself tied for years to someone following a bit of fun.

I believe it's never too early to teach about consent. Consent isn't just about sex. If you're child is playing with a friend and the friend says stop, they need to know to stop. And they should expect the same in return. Personal space and boundaries should always be respected regardless of gender. No means no.

I remember being tickled as a child and asking for it to stop but was laughing at the same time so the person carried on. It was awful. I've seen the same done to my son by a grandparent. I didn't think I would have to explain to a grown up that no means no but apparently I did.

Dh and I are hopefully teaching ours to be good human beings.
The things I've always thought to be important is showing love and affection, good manners and being respectful, being active, doing chores, working hard at school, being practical, giving back to society, having lots of time outdoors and experiencing the world.
Being capable and having good character hopefully gives them good self esteem and strong values.

I think you have things backwards.
in much of history and in many places in the world, women are othered.
It is less than 150 years since married women in the Uk were allowed by law to keep their own property and earnings, it is less than 100 years since all women in this country got the vote, it is less than 50 years since women were entitled to equal pay, it is less than forty years since marital rape was criminalised in the U.K., it is less than twenty years since rape included when a woman was drunk or sleeping in Scotland (I am not sure about the rest of the U.K.).
While you may argue that these wrongs have now been addressed, women still do the majority of the household chores and childcare, and they still make up the majority of people living in poverty. Victims of domestic abuse are overwhelmingly female and two women are killed by their intimate partners a week, there are woefully low prosecution rates for rape. Women are sexualised in pornography and expected to conform to quite high standards of beauty.
(I was going to add in the marriage bar but I cannot remember when that ended. This is that women were expected to give up their jobs on marriage).
This thread is not about othering male children, but how we/should we teach (male) children that women and girls should not be othered in the ways that have happened historically and still happen today. Indeed, no-one should be othered. This is important given that it many ways, gender stereotypes are being recreated and reinforced more than they were when I was growing up.

Leading by example. DH and I earn the same, share childcare, share housework. We treat our dd and ds the same, same expectations (2 year age difference so taking that into account). The answer is equality I think. You can harp on to your children about feminism until you're blue in the face - they won't be what they can't see.

I think it’s interesting that women often feel they are shouldering the responsibility for raising ‘good men’. You will often see people posting on social media after some news headline about a terrible man that they are raising their sons to be ‘good men’. Feels like another patriarchal response to male behaviour. So much influences behaviour, both nature and nurture, it doesn’t all rest on the shoulders of women to ensure we have a society of ‘good men’.

Of course I am raising my sons to have good manners, understand inequality, to respect fellow humans and try to model positive relationships to them. But how men turn out can’t be solely laid at the door of their mother.

@ScarlettOBan this probably because so many men are rubbish fathers so what choice do women have?
All children should be shown love and good care and be raised with good values and that can help to form a society of good men and women.

Thank you for womansplaining. In fact your post is by definition othering.
Mumsnet has a penchant for degenerating men-now its boys.
That's my opinion that I'm entitled to as a mother of two boys and a great male partner.

I'm not going to divert the thread by challenging your points, some of which i vehemently do not agree with.
Carry on.

@DaffodilsAlready I agree totally with all you say. Society is more genderised than it was when I grew up. It becomes so much harder to parent with that mindset when everything around us is pink and blue with a very clear line down the middle.

missamyp that’s great for you that you have a good partner and are the mother to two sons.
Nothing I have said detracts from that or indeed their qualities. We can all point to the great men we know, these are the role models the thread is talking about, I think.

I honestly do not think that good men are in any way diminished by recognising the history of inequalities which women have faced. I will do some more womansplaining, and say that many of the pioneering women in sciences, education and the professions in previous centuries thrived precisely because they had fathers who saw the value in educating women and did not feel threatened by this concept. How many more were not able to reach their potential? How many women today get stuck because of childcare not being shared equally? There’s a book by Evan Stark which in part argues that for women to thrive in public life, domestic inequalities need to be addressed (women’s time should be seen as important as men’s). I don’t think it is womansplaining or indeed a derailment of the thread to discuss these things.

(I am also not sure how you can disagree with historical facts about when laws changed, which most of my point was, is there a counter history where women were legally and socially equal which I am not aware of? Be great to know).

Personally, I think it's important to raise strong men and women who are capable and resilient.
This is hard work and not easy to do if you don't have those qualities yourself.

Almost everyone seems to think their little boy is perfect, sweet and lovely. No ons thinks their son is a potential rapist. EVERY boy is a potential rapist. I think women need to realise this when raising their sons. It’s an uncomfortable truth. There is a lot you can do with teaching empathy and respect.

Ag the same time, I don’t agree that the mother should always be blamed for this. Unless a woman is actively abusive or allows rape and poor treatment of women to be viewed by her son, we shouldn’t blame mothers. It’s a man’s responsibility to not be a rapist.

Doesn't matter what you do raising your son he'll still be 'the potential rapist' 'the violent misogynist' etc on here.

Just do your best to raise a caring human. Hopefully he'll find a good young woman to share lives with. Remind him not to settle with someone just because and to talk through each others expectations. (And check she's not a mimsnetter, they're awfull)

Absolutely nothing different than to how I'm raising my dd. Why do I need to? I'm not holding my dh responsible for the acts of other men, and I do not feel the need to lump him in with other men. We have ensure that they are surrounded by good role models, both male and female. Other than that, I do not feel the need to view the males in my life as predators.

As you would with a daughter. You show them a strong woman who accepts no shit from anyone. You treat them as an individual and the skill of effective communication. You raise well rounded individuals regardless of their sex. Been there got the T shirt! Single mothers can and do do an excellent job. Chuckling at the parents on here that haven't a clue.

We should ask why are so many girls doing badly at school, leaving with poor qualifications, not studying for a trade or skill, taking jobs with little progression and by default being the SAHP.

Doesn't matter what you do raising your son he'll still be 'the potential rapist' 'the violent misogynist' etc on here.

Just do your best to raise a caring human. Hopefully he'll find a good young woman to share lives with. Remind him not to settle with someone just because and to talk through each others expectations. (And check she's not a mimsnetter, they're awfull)

Well you're on here, so I guess you must be awful. Given the proportion of women who suffer rape or sexual assault, it's not exactly surprising that quite a lot of women see men as potential rapists or violent misogynists.

The main problem is children don't do as you say, they do as you do. So if you have one partner disrespecting the other one it won't end well, because the children will mirror this behaviour thinking it's normal.
I live on my own for many years because l have really high standards and won't tolerate shit behaviour. My two sons who are now young adults are kind decent young men. They are very respectful towards me as l am them. Eldest has been with his girlfriend past 5 years, very calm loving relationship, her parents have welcomed into their family, they all go out together and get on very well.
Its just a case of having high standards in pretty much everything you do. I would have raised daughters the same.

We should ask why are so many girls doing badly at school, leaving with poor qualifications, not studying for a trade or skill, taking jobs with little progression and by default being the SAHP.

Exactly, in this day and age when you have the most options, choice and equality than ever before why are women not taking accountability for their own decisions and choices ?