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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Nobody's talking about the massacre in Moscow then?

139 replies

PossumintheHouse · 22/03/2024 20:27

https://news.sky.com/story/several-killed-as-gunmen-open-fire-at-concert-venue-in-moscow-blaze-reported-13100041

Over 40 dead and at least 100 injured? Obviously there's a lot going on tonight, but the lack of chat about this is surprising?

If there's another big thread and I've missed it, I hold my hands up. I can't find it.

At least 40 killed as gunmen open fire at concert venue in Moscow

Footage taken inside the auditorium shows up to four gunmen firing automatic weapons as people crouch and hide behind seats.

https://news.sky.com/story/several-killed-as-gunmen-open-fire-at-concert-venue-in-moscow-blaze-reported-13100041

OP posts:
MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2024 10:40

I'm actually wondering if it coincided with the US warning about a possible attack - which I had missed to be fair but which went out on I think 7th March? Because up till early March I was seeing alot from news outlets and shared by friends particularly about Gaza. Not sure what weird connections my brain is trying to make - I'm just faintly aware something is different about my social media. I'm not on any other social media regularly cos half the time I don't understand it and the other half I'm too busy I really world, so it may be different elsewhere.

Interesting to keep an eye on though - I watched the whole Cambridge Analytica thing unfold and it really sunk in. Strange and interesting times doesn't begin to cover it these days.....

KattyBoomBoom95 · 24/03/2024 11:37

I've never understood why the Islamic community doesn't speak out more against organisations like ISIS/ISIL/Al Quayeda. I doubt they care what us Westerners think but perhaps if it was repeatedly driven home that they don't represent true Islam then it might deter young Muslims from joining, even if it doesn't reach the more hardcore jihadists.

When 'fighters' return back home after attending ISIS training camps etc why aren't they shunned by their communities?

I'll no doubt get flack for this as it's a bit of a taboo subject but we always hear about how innocent/everyday men should be standing together against male violence in light of the ~100 women murdered by men each year. So why don't we hear that the Muslim community should be protesting together when more than 100 people are killed in one night?

I'm aware that some leaders have previously denounced them but we never hear people saying they should speak up in the same way we hear them go on about men's responsibility to do so. The Left in particular seem terrified to confront the actions of any group that isn't white and western, as we saw with the Rotherham scandal and the 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on NYE.

PerkingFaintly · 24/03/2024 11:56

Interesting to keep an eye on though - I watched the whole Cambridge Analytica thing unfold and it really sunk in. Strange and interesting times doesn't begin to cover it these days.....

Yes, indeed.

Acapulco12 · 24/03/2024 16:00

KattyBoomBoom95 · 24/03/2024 11:37

I've never understood why the Islamic community doesn't speak out more against organisations like ISIS/ISIL/Al Quayeda. I doubt they care what us Westerners think but perhaps if it was repeatedly driven home that they don't represent true Islam then it might deter young Muslims from joining, even if it doesn't reach the more hardcore jihadists.

When 'fighters' return back home after attending ISIS training camps etc why aren't they shunned by their communities?

I'll no doubt get flack for this as it's a bit of a taboo subject but we always hear about how innocent/everyday men should be standing together against male violence in light of the ~100 women murdered by men each year. So why don't we hear that the Muslim community should be protesting together when more than 100 people are killed in one night?

I'm aware that some leaders have previously denounced them but we never hear people saying they should speak up in the same way we hear them go on about men's responsibility to do so. The Left in particular seem terrified to confront the actions of any group that isn't white and western, as we saw with the Rotherham scandal and the 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on NYE.

I understand your point, especially when you compare it to the situation of men speaking out after women are murdered by violent men.

There’s two things that I wanted to mention after reading your post.

When you write that you ‘doubt that [Muslims] care what us Westerners think’, it’s really important to remember that Muslims living in the West (e.g. Europe, the US and Canada, Australia and Canada) are part of this group of ‘Westerners’. They are just as ‘Western’ as people who are not Muslim; they are ‘Western’ and also Muslim.

There is a very small minority of people living in Western countries who call themselves Muslims but they are not Muslims at all. They believe in ISIS and Al-Qaeda ideology and they are against Muslim values and the values of democracy, multiculturalism and freedom of belief that is key to Western societies.

Also, the other point I wanted to make is, whilst Muslims could speak out about this, I’m not sure it makes sense for them to. First of all, organisations like ISIS do not have ‘Muslim’ values or beliefs in any shape or form. They are barbaric terrorist groups who survive by recruiting and radicalising vulnerable people from all walks of life and by creating an environment of terror, fear and destruction.

Also, Muslims are already the target of hatred, violence and discrimination in many countries around the world - partly because of more long-standing hatred and bias against them for a variety of unfounded reasons, and partly because of the fact that terrorist organisations call themselves ‘Muslim’. Why should we place another burden on them by expecting them to speak out about acts supposedly committed in their religion by a group that is not at all Muslim?

I think, actually, that it is the job of national governments to speak out against ISIS and Al Qaeda.

The British government, for example does speak out about them. They don’t always do it well, sensitively or effectively, but they do. It is the job of governments - and actually of everyone in society e.g. families, teachers, police, healthcare workers, youth workers - to stop people from turning to organisations such as ISIS and becoming ‘hardcore jihadists’, as you put it.

In somewhere like Russia, for instance, Putin might speak out against terrorists, as he has done after Friday’s attack. However, the problem is that Russian society under his rule is generally unstable, unhappy and disillusioned, due to his weak and egotistical governance and complete authoritarianism. Russian society under his rule has so many ‘push’ factors towards these sorts of terrorist organisations - e.g. poverty, lack of job prospects, racism, Islamophobia, poor living standards, poor life expectancy, lack of social and health care support, a relentles and bloodthirsty focus on the war with Ukraine - that this is one of the reasons why terrorist organisations are taking advantage of Russia and other countries around it as a source of recruitment.

You make an interesting point about why ISIS members aren’t shunned by their communities when they return to their home countries after attending ISIS training camps. I’ve never read any articles that mention what happens to people who come back home after attending ISIS training camps, so I don’t know the answer to this.

For situations where someone has been radicalised by a terrorist organisation such as ISIS and then committed a terrorist attack, I can only imagine that they plan the attack as secretly as possible, to avoid any sort of detection. Therefore, their families and people in their lives aren’t aware of what they are planning, and cannot therefore shun them.

Also, I know I’m saying something theoretical here, but I think ‘shunning’ someone in this scenario is the worst thing you can do. This is because it will push them further towards these terrorist organisations. They will feel more and more vulnerable and cut off from society, so they will have even more need to be accepted by a terrorist group who will radicalise them further.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2024 16:29

Acapulco12 · 24/03/2024 16:00

I understand your point, especially when you compare it to the situation of men speaking out after women are murdered by violent men.

There’s two things that I wanted to mention after reading your post.

When you write that you ‘doubt that [Muslims] care what us Westerners think’, it’s really important to remember that Muslims living in the West (e.g. Europe, the US and Canada, Australia and Canada) are part of this group of ‘Westerners’. They are just as ‘Western’ as people who are not Muslim; they are ‘Western’ and also Muslim.

There is a very small minority of people living in Western countries who call themselves Muslims but they are not Muslims at all. They believe in ISIS and Al-Qaeda ideology and they are against Muslim values and the values of democracy, multiculturalism and freedom of belief that is key to Western societies.

Also, the other point I wanted to make is, whilst Muslims could speak out about this, I’m not sure it makes sense for them to. First of all, organisations like ISIS do not have ‘Muslim’ values or beliefs in any shape or form. They are barbaric terrorist groups who survive by recruiting and radicalising vulnerable people from all walks of life and by creating an environment of terror, fear and destruction.

Also, Muslims are already the target of hatred, violence and discrimination in many countries around the world - partly because of more long-standing hatred and bias against them for a variety of unfounded reasons, and partly because of the fact that terrorist organisations call themselves ‘Muslim’. Why should we place another burden on them by expecting them to speak out about acts supposedly committed in their religion by a group that is not at all Muslim?

I think, actually, that it is the job of national governments to speak out against ISIS and Al Qaeda.

The British government, for example does speak out about them. They don’t always do it well, sensitively or effectively, but they do. It is the job of governments - and actually of everyone in society e.g. families, teachers, police, healthcare workers, youth workers - to stop people from turning to organisations such as ISIS and becoming ‘hardcore jihadists’, as you put it.

In somewhere like Russia, for instance, Putin might speak out against terrorists, as he has done after Friday’s attack. However, the problem is that Russian society under his rule is generally unstable, unhappy and disillusioned, due to his weak and egotistical governance and complete authoritarianism. Russian society under his rule has so many ‘push’ factors towards these sorts of terrorist organisations - e.g. poverty, lack of job prospects, racism, Islamophobia, poor living standards, poor life expectancy, lack of social and health care support, a relentles and bloodthirsty focus on the war with Ukraine - that this is one of the reasons why terrorist organisations are taking advantage of Russia and other countries around it as a source of recruitment.

You make an interesting point about why ISIS members aren’t shunned by their communities when they return to their home countries after attending ISIS training camps. I’ve never read any articles that mention what happens to people who come back home after attending ISIS training camps, so I don’t know the answer to this.

For situations where someone has been radicalised by a terrorist organisation such as ISIS and then committed a terrorist attack, I can only imagine that they plan the attack as secretly as possible, to avoid any sort of detection. Therefore, their families and people in their lives aren’t aware of what they are planning, and cannot therefore shun them.

Also, I know I’m saying something theoretical here, but I think ‘shunning’ someone in this scenario is the worst thing you can do. This is because it will push them further towards these terrorist organisations. They will feel more and more vulnerable and cut off from society, so they will have even more need to be accepted by a terrorist group who will radicalise them further.

Agreed.

At the risk of being accused of hyperbole and invoking Godwin's law, it is easy to think that as humans faced with unthinkable choices, we would always choose the noble route.

But if your life, and especially your family's lives were at risk from your principles, it's astounding how quickly one will "compromise" in the name of survival.

The question always comes up "How could the German people have gone along with all of the atrocities ...."

The answer is complex of course. But often boils down to self preservation.

Coercion through religion and ideology when the ultimate consequence could be your own death, or your children's is a powerful motivator, and I disagree with martyrdom as it takes another "right thinking" person out of the equation who may be able to work more successfully from within.

What would I do if told to shoot someone or watch my son be shot? Shoot myself? And both others end up shot too? Yes, these are thought games I have played to try and get a grip on my moral compass. It's not fun. It's been motivated by reading history and trying to understand the "how the fuck do these things happen". And I still thank the alleged deities that these are choices I have never faced, nor am ever likely to. Hopefully. Although the way the world is going who knows.

Sobering thoughts eh?

PerkingFaintly · 24/03/2024 16:31

The documentary I saw about some Brits who'd travelled to the Middle East to become part of Daesh made clear that the British families and communities these people had grown up in were utterly horrified by the behaviour of these young males (I notice the PP somehow failed to compute that the Moscow attack was male violence).

One of their former school friends (IIRC also Muslim) described it as having left "a trail of devastation" among their family and friends. In fact the documentary-maker had found it very difficult to find anyone willing to talk because everyone who had known these men was so aghast and destroyed.

The concept that random outsiders might be demanding they publicly virtue-signal their horror and grief wasn't even on their radar.

PerkingFaintly · 24/03/2024 16:36

Yeah, it's quite odd to describe "Westerners" and "Muslims" as though these are two completely separate things. Muslim Brits are Westerners.

Also odd categorising to talk of the male "Moscow terrorists" as somehow separate from "men". The Moscow terrorists are men.

Acapulco12 · 24/03/2024 16:40

PerkingFaintly · 24/03/2024 16:31

The documentary I saw about some Brits who'd travelled to the Middle East to become part of Daesh made clear that the British families and communities these people had grown up in were utterly horrified by the behaviour of these young males (I notice the PP somehow failed to compute that the Moscow attack was male violence).

One of their former school friends (IIRC also Muslim) described it as having left "a trail of devastation" among their family and friends. In fact the documentary-maker had found it very difficult to find anyone willing to talk because everyone who had known these men was so aghast and destroyed.

The concept that random outsiders might be demanding they publicly virtue-signal their horror and grief wasn't even on their radar.

I didn’t mention it was male violence because I was responding to the PP’s point where they compared Muslims speaking out about ISIS/al Qaeda terrorist attacks to men speaking out against violence against women, and the Moscow terrorist attacks were aiming to kill as many people as possible - no matter who they were - rather than being an example of men committing violence against women.

Also, I think it’s important to note that attacks - especially in Russia and in nearby countries - have been committed by men and women.

PerkingFaintly · 24/03/2024 17:14

Sorry, I wasn't trying to get at you, and I see that you were focussing on the "against women" part.

I was just picking up on that poster's very specific and odd categorising where they seemed to be labelling violence by four male Muslims as Muslim-violence; but not as male-violence.

It absolutely was male violence – including when men were among the victims. (Just as Muslims feature heavily among the victims of violence by Islamist extremists.)

Yes, absolutely, there have been instances where women have been part of attacks. But the overwhelming number of Daesh terror attackers are male – a pattern which is usual for terrorists of all stripes.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 24/03/2024 19:45

Interestingly since posting on this thread, I have had two Gaza related posts and a Moscow one on my Facebook feed. After nothing much for a couple of weeks. Just an observation.

KattyBoomBoom95 · 26/03/2024 00:37

Also, the other point I wanted to make is, whilst Muslims could speak out about this, I’m not sure it makes sense for them to. First of all, organisations like ISIS do not have ‘Muslim’ values or beliefs in any shape or form.

Thanks for taking the time to post your detailed reply.

In regard to the above, though, I think you could also argue that most men don't share the values of incels or violent men so it's also kind of pointless for them to speak out.

I think the fact that most Muslims don't share the views of ISIS etc is arguably the whole reason why they do need to speak out, especially when such terrorists are marketing themselves as 'true' devotees - e.g. they claim to represent 'the restoration of the caliphate of early Islam' and believe that 'defiled' Islam 'must be purged of apostasy.'

KattyBoomBoom95 · 26/03/2024 01:01

I know these topics make people uncomfortable but I'm not altogether sure they should to the extent they often seem to. I work for a sikh employer (I'm one of three white people) and a lot of the contractors we deal with in the concrete industry are Muslims (mostly Pakistani origin I think but I'm unsure). I don't know if it's the geographical area I work in but I suspect there's just a high representation in the sector.

What I find is that it's actually far more difficult to discuss this stuff with other white people than with my Indian mates. It's like there's some intrinsic notion of white privilege/white guilt that makes people afraid to reflect on the behaviour of other demographics.

Of course, I'm not saying the actions of the British Empire etc should be ignored and that the effects aren't still resounding but people are so quick to criticise the patriarchy in the western world (possibly the least patriarchal society of all) yet are totally unprepared to criticise significantly more patriarchal cultures that contribute to events like the 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on NYE and the increased rate of sexual offending of immigrants from certain cultures.

It's the same with slavery. All we ever hear about is the transatlantic slave trade despite the fact there are 4x more slaves in the world today than were enslaved over those entire 400 years. And the awkward fact that 9/10 of the top ten countries involved in modern slavery are majority non white - Russia is 10th on the list and arguably not even a 'Western' country.

cordeliachaseatemyhandbag · 26/03/2024 07:22

KattyBoomBoom95 · 24/03/2024 11:37

I've never understood why the Islamic community doesn't speak out more against organisations like ISIS/ISIL/Al Quayeda. I doubt they care what us Westerners think but perhaps if it was repeatedly driven home that they don't represent true Islam then it might deter young Muslims from joining, even if it doesn't reach the more hardcore jihadists.

When 'fighters' return back home after attending ISIS training camps etc why aren't they shunned by their communities?

I'll no doubt get flack for this as it's a bit of a taboo subject but we always hear about how innocent/everyday men should be standing together against male violence in light of the ~100 women murdered by men each year. So why don't we hear that the Muslim community should be protesting together when more than 100 people are killed in one night?

I'm aware that some leaders have previously denounced them but we never hear people saying they should speak up in the same way we hear them go on about men's responsibility to do so. The Left in particular seem terrified to confront the actions of any group that isn't white and western, as we saw with the Rotherham scandal and the 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on NYE.

Maybe those groups have a lot more soft support in the west than anyone is even willing to suggest.

cordeliachaseatemyhandbag · 26/03/2024 07:38

KattyBoomBoom95 · 26/03/2024 01:01

I know these topics make people uncomfortable but I'm not altogether sure they should to the extent they often seem to. I work for a sikh employer (I'm one of three white people) and a lot of the contractors we deal with in the concrete industry are Muslims (mostly Pakistani origin I think but I'm unsure). I don't know if it's the geographical area I work in but I suspect there's just a high representation in the sector.

What I find is that it's actually far more difficult to discuss this stuff with other white people than with my Indian mates. It's like there's some intrinsic notion of white privilege/white guilt that makes people afraid to reflect on the behaviour of other demographics.

Of course, I'm not saying the actions of the British Empire etc should be ignored and that the effects aren't still resounding but people are so quick to criticise the patriarchy in the western world (possibly the least patriarchal society of all) yet are totally unprepared to criticise significantly more patriarchal cultures that contribute to events like the 1200 sexual assaults in Germany on NYE and the increased rate of sexual offending of immigrants from certain cultures.

It's the same with slavery. All we ever hear about is the transatlantic slave trade despite the fact there are 4x more slaves in the world today than were enslaved over those entire 400 years. And the awkward fact that 9/10 of the top ten countries involved in modern slavery are majority non white - Russia is 10th on the list and arguably not even a 'Western' country.

Edited

Well India & Pakistan have nuclear bombs pointing at each other. They aren't pals in a diplomatic sense.

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