To think change is desperately needed in schools?

[GibberingPeck]

I work with young children. Today I was hit twice and scratched on the face so hard it drew blood. This has not happened to me before and I’ve worked in schools for many years. I was trying to stop a child hurting another child. The school’s stance seems to be that I shouldn’t have intervened or somehow dealt with the situation badly. I think they saw I was bleeding, but ignored it as they have so much to deal with. This year, I think I’ve seen more violent and aggressive behaviour from children than I’ve ever seen. And no way of dealing with it - it seems to have become acceptable or ‘the norm’.

I think what's interesting about the podcast mentioned above is the increase of screens in school as a teaching tool, not sure how I feel about that.

@izimbra but I'm not talking about situations like your own? I'm not even talking about children with severe mental illness. The examples I gave weren't even of teenagers. I was just giving examples of how uncontained some children are due to a lack of appropriate parenting which is not the fault of CAMHS

Belting kids!! For goodness sake. Do some people not recognise that a rare, small smack on the bottom of a very naughty child works quickly when all the gentle little chats in the entire world haven't stopped their bad behaviour? There is a huge difference between belting a child in anger and a small smack on a clothed bottom.

@Simmy76349 am I a career person? People at work might say I am I guess, whatever one of those is. I certainly haven't prioritised my career at all stages of my life though, although colleagues wouldn't know that. I personally can't tell the difference between a colleague with 20 years experience who took 5 of those years part time at some point for example and a colleague with 20 years full time experience. I think you can have a career and be a fantastic parent.

@fuckityfuckityfuckfuck most people agree that from the age of 2/3 some nursery time is very beneficial for socialising, getting school ready, getting used to other settings etc.

But some kids (and babies) are in those settings 8/10 hours a day, 5 days a week and it is an awful lot for them. It's a knackering week for adults, let alone children. It also leaves many parents stressed and short on time.

I am not criticising parents who have this set up at all, for many it's a necessity.

Society has changed, the way many young kids live has changed and I don't think we can ignore that when talking about how things are in schools.

It's obviously not the only thing or even the most important thing to be honest- just reading through this thread highlights so many very interesting points from screens to lockdowns, to curriculum changes and funding. It's a mix of all of it and will likely take years to unpick and improve.

I would say at least half of our school nursery cohort have some sort of ‘need’ with 3 on the autism pathway

I wonder that no-one on here has thought seriously about the impact Covid had on the fast developing brains of children? Normality disappeared for so long under covid rules, from social time to nursery and school. Adults suffered from high levels of stress (and IMO we can still see it in everyday life now) - just think of the effects on children. Not disregarding other things but honestly can't see how we can ignore Covid.

I wonder that no-one on here has thought seriously about the impact Covid had on the fast developing brains of children?

It added to the behaviour - which was already bad - there should be no excuses that Covid caused children to hit adults or throw chairs or start fights.

Well behaved children continued to be behaved

My dad, born 1962, was literally belted as a day to day punishment as a child

But there weren’t similar crises during the world wars and that would’ve been much more stressful and frightening.

I think change is desperately needed at home, before children get to school age. Nowadays, parents seem to expect schools to parent as well as educate.

This

There are many studies confirming that infants and children under 3 have cortisol spikes (stress hormone) when sent from home to nursery even if outwardly there’s little evidence of distress. Worryingly the cortisol level’s remained high even after returning home. It is stressful to be removed from a known environment with people who love you to unknown carers.

It's been 6 years since my youngest left school but even back then there were teachers who expressed surprise when I backed the school up for disciplining my child. Only minor infractions but I always said to my kids if you break the rules, you pay the price. Sadly, there are too many parents now who just constantly make excuses for their kids bad behaviour and teachers don't get the back up to discipline.

Not in late 80s and 90s it was not.

@Mumma2024
I'm so sorry that your dad was treated so badly, and he was - but that doesn't invalidate my comment. I taught in the 70s and at one stage taught 37 6-8 year olds in a deprived area in a leaky portacabin (Labour government, if I remember correctly). I probably smacked a bottom a couple of times when necessary, but the knowledge that it would happen if there was bad behaviour was enough to stop bad behaviour in its tracks. And, no. The children weren't afraid of me. We had fun times. But there were boundaries. And I was never sworn at, never had a chair thrown at me....

I don't believe this. I'm a single parent full-time job and I am there for my DC, have always read to them, answered any questions they've had, taken them to interesting places, played games with them, taken them to after-school clubs, scouts/cubs, attended all their parents eve and put in place that they know I will always be there for them, but there will be consequences if they are rude to me or teachers and that I am not their servant and that they have to be respectful and treat others as they are treated. If they get told off at school, I back the consequences imposed by the school. They didn't have a tablet when younger unless on a flight, where they shared my tablet. They only got their own tablets when pretty much a requirement for second lockdown schooling and then didn't get phones/consoles until secondary. I don't know how my DC will turn out academically, but they seem to fit in, are resilient, have manners and are respectful at the moment and whilst I expect this to continue to be tested during their teenage years, I have no reason to think that they won't be this way at the end of teenage years.

Too many parents not parenting, kids left with iPads or screens etc from 2 years old, fed UPFs mixed with lockdown all a recipe for disaster. It’s acceptable for kids to misbehave nowadays so no wonder they do it at school. Don’t know what the answer is but parents need to take on responsibility for their children. Awful reading nursery and teachers stories nowadays :(

This is shocking

Or could it be that Reception as currently embodied is a disaster as a concept?

In other countries, four year old children are still in some kind of preschool environment, or at home.

I think there may be some truth in this. I'm an educated mum who had children later in life so took time off work, and could afford clubs and swimming etc. A group of us went to some baby classes at the local Surestart centre but we could have gone elsewhere.

When DS was 2 I suspected possible issues so took him to a parenting class at the centre. They were great - suggested he start pre-school (which I was fortunate enough to be able to afford) so I did, and the staff there were fantastic helping me get his ASD diagnosis.

Meanwhile I attended a local authority parenting course - every wednesday afternoon for ten weeks or whatever. It wasn't overly helpful as our issues related to what turned out to be SEN rather than 'normal' parenting problems - but we didn't know that at the time. But I noticed that all the parents who turned up regularly were people like me - well educated, with no personal issues, just wanting to do the best for their children. We could probably have learned the same from reading a few books. But for the first two weeks a young couple came with their daughter, and they were clearly desperately in need of support. They were also very uncomfortable about being in a 'class', speaking in front of others, etc. Their child wouldn't go to bed apparently - she was about three and wandered about doing her own thing, with a snotty nose, and they were clearly out of their depth. The chap kept on and on about going to the pub.

I think they had been referred by some body or other - but they stopped coming after a couple of classes as I think they just felt too uncomfortable. It's such a shame - but the council put on these amazing resources and it's the wrong people who go! You can't make people attend, even if they would really benefit - and also perhaps having some there who don't need it so much may make those struggling parents feel even more out of their comfort zone.

I don't know the answer - how to reach those most in need - but maybe these centres and courses aren't the best way?

I work in a school and it's the same for things like parents evening. The articulate, engaged, supportive parents all come along and the ones that the teachers really want engage with are often the ones who don't.

I took mine to the local surestart centre, it was on the middle deprived area of town and was brilliant.

There was a specific group for young mums and another for parents with children with SEN. It disappeared.

My DS does have ASD. He didn't have access to.a small screen such as a tablet or a phone until he was 7. He doesn't stay up to midnight playing games. His brain is just built a bit different.

I think it is a combination of things, low income families struggling in over crowded housing, too tired or overwhelmed to parent. A lack of respect in some families for teachers and parents unwilling to assert boundaries. The ease and convenience of devices. Covid. A Conservative government who just don't give a shit about children.

Come on! I went to school in the 80s and there was zero bum smacking - children just knew what was expected from both teachers and parents. Parents and teachers were all on the same page, setting standards and modelling appropriate behaviour.

I'm a current primary teacher and the thought of smacking "a bottom a couple of times when necessary" seems ridiculous and horrifying in equal measure! 😳

I agree with the poster that if we could teach 60 x 1 minute lessons, we would keep the attention of students. Even in my outstanding school behaviour isn’t what I would call “outstanding”. I may not be called a “cunt” to my fave anymore but I battle against continual talking, apathy and rudeness. It’s exhausting. I try to model good behaviour - “good morning/afternoon”, a smile, “please/thank you”, polite reminders about expectations - but nothing works because en masse the pupils I teach want Grade 9 and it’s MY job to get them that grade, taking all responsibility from them. Tbf, they have a better chance of getting higher grades in my class than the other 2 classes taught by cover supervisors, but that’s not the point.

And to the posters saying nursery and wraparound is the problem - you’re talking shit. We teachers - the ones who teach your children - have to use childcare as our days can’t fit in with school drop offs and collections. We then work at home. I still manage to converse with my children, read to them, help them with homework etc.

I've posted a few times on here and I find the thread really interesting. I live overseas and think there's a much higher set of expectations of how kids should behave vs UK. I have a 3.5 yo son who has been displaying violent behaviour since moving from nursery to preschool and in his frustration/anger he bites, throws, hits. He knows it's wrong and he's been given alternative ways of expressing his anger and yet he can't control it at the moment and its not through lack of parenting, ive tried everything- hes been behaving like this at home for a long time but now its spilled into preschool. But I feel that judgement and shame from everywhere. What's been conflicting is that his school teachers and pediatrican here are alarmed by his behaviour and he's been referred to a child psychologist. The one native English teacher there thinks his behaviour is "OK and he's just being 3, cant see what the fuss i about" and I spoke to a friend in the UK who's a pediatrician and she said she thought some kids just take longer to emotionally develop and it wasn't a big deal and that he was too young to be in preschool. Why are the expectations so different?
He's in montessori setting and kids (from 3) are expected to come in and independently, take their shoes off, tidy them away, put on slippers, hang up their coat, put water bottle away, go to the toilet themselves. Inside there are alot of rules to follow, each kid has accountability for their own area for keeping tidy, if they play with something they have to tidy it away afterwards, they tidy up their plates at lunch etc. It's what's expected. I'm not convinced on the montessori setting long term but there are some benefits.

Here they also have public funded play centres with child psychologists and experts that you can go to for advice if needed. They also have free toy libraries and play centres full of toys that you can take your kids to - mobile phones are banned so parents cant just sit there playing on their phones. So there is definitely more support if you are struggling and everything in place to guide you in the right direction.

School is really rigorous too, designed so that not everyone goes into higher education just those who are academically able to, more exams. Kids are expected to study hard. Again not sure what I make of that but I do think more is expected from kids here.
To be honest it shows, I don't see any antisocial behaviour from kids in parks, buses, etc - the kids all seem to be well behaved.