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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think change is desperately needed in schools?

612 replies

GibberingPeck · 18/03/2024 18:46

I work with young children. Today I was hit twice and scratched on the face so hard it drew blood. This has not happened to me before and I’ve worked in schools for many years. I was trying to stop a child hurting another child. The school’s stance seems to be that I shouldn’t have intervened or somehow dealt with the situation badly. I think they saw I was bleeding, but ignored it as they have so much to deal with. This year, I think I’ve seen more violent and aggressive behaviour from children than I’ve ever seen. And no way of dealing with it - it seems to have become acceptable or ‘the norm’.

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WearyAuldWumman · 01/04/2024 00:25

Rianxz · 01/04/2024 00:05

Also, to add.. in both the class where I had the violent boys who would often escape and in my friend’s class with similar children.. both different schools and different head teachers but both of us were told to barricade the door with a table and teach from there to not let them get past you.

Can you IMAGINE when you were at primary school if someone in the class behaved so awfully, the teacher was regularly assaulted and was now having to barricade the door with actual pieces of furniture?! But you’ve to sit there and do your maths like everything is fine. They bang on about trauma informed everything. The classroom is the main source of trauma for 90% of the kids in the class!

This chimes with me.

I only do supply now (secondary). Where I'm currently working, the classroom doors lock automatically and have a swipe key. However, kids get into the locked classes because they'll wait for someone to leave or a friend will let them in.

I thought that I was being picked on for being supply, but it turns out that certain groups of children are targeting specific teachers, trying to get into classrooms where they don't belong.

I had a group of girls trying to get into my room one day. I smelt a rat, so declined to let them in. (They tried to pretend that they were members of my class - it's a very large school and some class members were off, so it would have been feasible.) I told them to go check their timetable with the office and closed the door.

Next thing, they began to bang on the door, demanding to be let in. They didn't leave until they spotted a senior manager approaching. (I'd phoned for back-up.)

I later found out that the same group has been targeting young male teachers in the school. Nothing is being done.

When pupils walk out of a class, we have to let them go. It's unlawful to stop them. They use their phones to meet up in toilets, the corridor...

Apparently, I can stop them from coming into my room but I have to be careful not to touch them. This sounds ridiculous, but if they have an accomplice in a class, it can be a race between the accomplice and the teacher as to who gets to the door first - and (of course) we can't touch the accomplice.

Why am I even doing supply? I'm in my 60s. I have no immediate family now. Apart from being a carer for the past nearly 30 years, I don't know anything other than teaching.

LittleWeed2 · 01/04/2024 06:05

The biggest change in day to day life is the use of screens.
The Spectator had an article about the school that banned use of screens by giving pupils a lockable holder. Locked for the duration of the school day.
A teacher rushed to the window to see what the noise was about. Pupils were laughing , chatting noisily like they did pre screens.
Pupils were happy and enjoying school.

karriecreamer · 01/04/2024 08:28

Blaming phone or covid is the wrong target.

School behaviour problems have been around for a few decades and are getting worse, inevitably, because those who misbehaved seriously say 20 years ago, are now breeding and their offspring are even more disruptive and lawless because their parents have no moral compass. The underclass is a real problem and each generation of them is getting worse re lawlessness, worklessness, crime, etc.

We can spend billions on installing lockers for mobile phones in every school, but it won't touch the sides of the underclass/dross elements of society who terrorise teachers and pupils, damage the classrooms, etc all backed up by their feckless parents who "know their rights".

It's not just schools who are plagued by the underclass, shops have to let them shoplift because the police don't care and won't arrest/support in store security staff. The underclass don't bother insuring nor taxing their cars, they don't bother with traffic laws like parking and speeding. They're more likely to be involved in crime, whether benefit fraud, tax fraud, money laundering, drug dealing, etc.

I think we need to look at the wider picture rather than just schools, as we'll never solve the school crime/disruption problem until we tackle the families of those "problem" children. No political party even acknowledges the massive scale/problem of the lawless underclass, so nothing on the horizon in the way of plans to actually tackle it.

WearyAuldWumman · 01/04/2024 13:16

I can only speak from my own experience here. While there is a problem with what karriecreamer has termed an 'underclass', many of the problems that I see at school are caused by the children of 'nice' middle-class families - parents who are unwilling to accept (or possibly admit) that their children can ever do wrong.

A 15 yr old boy who continually targeted younger girls with sexualised behaviour comes to mind. He also began to target his young female teacher.

As HoD I called in the parents and told them that I had moved their child to my class. The mother complained that their son's behaviour was the fault of the school - the play that we were studying contained a couple of swear words.

I told her that I could quite understand her concern over swear words in set texts and pointed out that if she was unhappy with the play, she should make her complaint to the exam board.

When a younger girl at the school received dick pics, her son's account had been 'hacked' apparently. When he failed to complete his coursework and had to be presented for a lower level of qualification, it was my fault for moving his class.

I recall that the father looked embarrassed and browbeaten any time I saw him.

The above is only one example. To sum up, the behavioural problems that I have seen becoming worse over the last 40 years stem from both parental attitude and LA refusal to allow firm sanctions.

SaffronSpice · 01/04/2024 15:03

I can only speak from my own experience here. While there is a problem with what karriecreamer has termed an 'underclass', many of the problems that I see at school are caused by the children of 'nice' middle-class families

whilst that may seem the case in your school, it is pretty obvious that schools in more deprived areas struggle with much more antisocial behaviour and less engagement with school. If this weren’t the case, to what would you ascribe the difference in outcomes and destinations?

WearyAuldWumman · 01/04/2024 16:51

SaffronSpice · 01/04/2024 15:03

I can only speak from my own experience here. While there is a problem with what karriecreamer has termed an 'underclass', many of the problems that I see at school are caused by the children of 'nice' middle-class families

whilst that may seem the case in your school, it is pretty obvious that schools in more deprived areas struggle with much more antisocial behaviour and less engagement with school. If this weren’t the case, to what would you ascribe the difference in outcomes and destinations?

In Scotland, there is a great emphasis on pupil destination. I spent my first 10 years in teaching as a classroom teacher. The next 24 years were spent in middle and upper-middle management, meaning that I was very involved in pupil outcomes and destinations. I am now semi-retired and working on a supply basis. Every school that I have worked in over the last forty years has been in an area with 'multiple indicators of deprivation'.

Differences in destination are often because of economic factors. This is common for working class families, where worry about money results in more pressure to go into work straight away. There are, of course, children from all classes who simply do not have an academic bent or who do not receive the appropriate encouragement from the adults in their life. Some of those do return to education later.

My own husband returned to education as a mature student. His parents wanted him to stay on at school, but his HT informed his parents "I don't see [DH] sitting behind a desk. Do you?"

The result was that he left school at 15 and - like his father - went into manual work. (This, in spite of the fact that his grades were reasonably good.) He later took qualifications at night school and sat the entrance exam for Aberdeen University.

I'm fortunate. My teachers encouraged all their pupils to use their talents.

My father was a coalminer, but I was an only child and my parents felt able to encourage and support me when I wanted to attend university. I have seen many working class children who gave up the chance for further education because they were worried about being able to support themselves: this has been exacerbated by the removal of grants.

Where working-class children do move onto further education, they now tend to head for the local college so that they can stay at home and work a part-time job close to home.

Some will take foundation courses at the college and then complete their degree at a university within travelling distance.

For some children, the fact that no one in their family has ever been in further education is a factor: they lack the confidence to try. Sadly, I have seen cases where children have been offered a place at university and have turned it down because of family circumstances.

The Inspectorate in Scotland uses destinations as one of the measures against which schools are judged, which is why (as a member of the school Extended Management Team) I was ultra-aware of destinations for pupils.

Where a pupil left school with no progression to further education, training or employment this counted as a black mark against the school.

In 40 years, I can recall a handful of cases of children from what you might term "an underclass" who blatantly stated that they didn't "need any qualifications to become a drug dealer". It's also a sad truth that children whose parents were drug addicts were more likely to fall by the wayside themselves.

By contrast, I've seen children from such families who have broken away and who have managed to become what we might term "a useful member of society".

More striking to me - and increasingly numerous - are the children from middle-class households who are so entitled that they expect to be able to behave as they wish and still receive good grades.

I'd say that the problem became more marked with the advent of the internet. Latterly, in my Faculty Head post, I had to spend a great deal of time checking coursework in order to avoid receiving a plagiarism notice from the exam board.

Universities use Turnitin. Unfortunately, I had to rely on Google. I've been caught out twice: once was an essay that was handed straight to the Exam Coordinator just before the official envelope was sealed; the other got past the class teacher and I didn't notice the plagiarism when I checked it. The exam board's copy of Turnitin did.

Not once can I recall a parent admitting that their child had actually cheated. In most cases, I caught the plagiarism before the coursework was sent off. I'd then have to deal with angry parents who wouldn't admit to the problem, even when given the evidence.

I recall one senior being verbally abusive towards me and overturning furniture when I had the nerve to suggest that she might have copied her essay from the internet.

The mother became verbally aggressive when contacted by the school and threatened legal action. When she was given incontrovertible proof - the child's printed essay and a printout of the essay from the website which provided ready-made essays - the mother then claimed that it didn't count as plagiarism. Her child had thought that it was "all right because they didn't copy and paste - they copied it by hand'. (Setting aside the ridiculous excuse, the pupil had actually done a copy and paste.)

The parent also denied that her child had turned up drunk for a mock, again threatening legal action against the school. (Paradoxically, the mother offered no reason or apology for the fact that the child had disrupted the exam by giggling and banging on tables.)

The mother was a solicitor.

After the results came out, she phoned the school to complain that the certificate said "Incomplete" for some subjects. Yes, those were subjects where the child had failed to submit coursework to the appropriate standard.

That's only one example of the entitlement that I've seen over the years.

In the case of the plagiarised essay that I missed, the school was compelled to carry out a formal interview with the pupil and the parent.

When the results came out, the parent had the audacity to phone the HT and complain that there was no grade for the subject. Apparently, the HT told the parent "Madam, would you rather it said 'cheated'?"

Things have become much worse since Covid, but the decline has been obvious for some time. There are problems right across society now and more and more of them seem to stem from internet usage - I'm thinking of cyberbullying, for instance.

I could give you umpteen examples, but I'd be here all day.

SaffronSpice · 03/04/2024 08:59

Universities should get rid of their widening access schemes then.

Notlikeamother · 03/04/2024 09:33

SaffronSpice · 03/04/2024 08:59

Universities should get rid of their widening access schemes then.

They should- it should require experience, knowledge and dedication to become a teacher- not just ‘I have business studies degree and can’t think of anything else so I’ll just do a pgce, even though I’m totally unsuited to the profession of teaching’

fitzwilliamdarcy · 03/04/2024 09:48

Notlikeamother · 03/04/2024 09:33

They should- it should require experience, knowledge and dedication to become a teacher- not just ‘I have business studies degree and can’t think of anything else so I’ll just do a pgce, even though I’m totally unsuited to the profession of teaching’

I think such changes are probably unlikely in the midst of a teacher retention and recruitment crisis.

Notlikeamother · 03/04/2024 10:34

fitzwilliamdarcy · 03/04/2024 09:48

I think such changes are probably unlikely in the midst of a teacher retention and recruitment crisis.

Yes, it’s a downward cycle. Things won’t improve without better staff, but they won’t get better staff when things are in such a mess, so things get worse, so mediocre staff leave, so they take worse staff, so things get worse etc.

SaffronSpice · 03/04/2024 10:54

Notlikeamother · 03/04/2024 09:33

They should- it should require experience, knowledge and dedication to become a teacher- not just ‘I have business studies degree and can’t think of anything else so I’ll just do a pgce, even though I’m totally unsuited to the profession of teaching’

I wasn’t thinking of teacher training, I meant more generally if performance is not linked to deprivation.

(I actually think they should be scaled back considerably)

laraitopbanana · 30/07/2024 18:35

Dacadactyl · 18/03/2024 19:07

There was no sure start or children's centres in the 80s and early 90s and behaviour wasn't out of control then though?

Parenting has changed a lot since then. Families have changed a lot too. Support has massively come but how will that actually help the said children all their life?

it does seem that the children are actually doing less good with the height of mental difficulties and the adults taking care of them aswell…

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