To think lots of women are happier when men aren’t around

[Smellsofspring]

As in husbands/partners

I don’t mean in all cases and not all the time…but I have noticed it in so many situations. A girls lunch/night out with just my girlfriends is a lot happier/freer/more fun than when our partners join. The dynamics are different, most friends are more dampened versions of themselves when they’re around and I sometimes sense tension. Even family type play dates, if we do just mums and kids, again the atmosphere is better without out other halves. My mum, I can see is visibly happier when just us girls (sister and I) and kids hang out or she tells me when Dh is out as she gets some peace.
My Dsis is 100% a happier and different person as a single mum, than she was in relationships. She’s fun and talkative now, but was moody and withdrawn in previous partners company at family do’s etc.
I personally have had some nice days out/short breaks with Dh and Dd, but my fondest memories have been just her and I and our adventures together. In those memories we’d sing and dance in the car as we drove to places, no stress when driving, no complaining/moods, just pure joy and embracing things.
I don’t hate men, but this is something I notice more and more the older I get

I enjoy the company of men; I have lovely male relatives, friends and colleagues.

However, there seems to be something that happens to men in relationships with women.

Every single one of my smart, capable, competent, funny, warm, financially savvy women friends who is in a long-term partnership with a man, irrespective of age, with or without children, have disclosed traits in their partner and incidents which lead to them feeling less than optimal. You'd never know: their male partners appear every bit as smart, capable, competent etc as my friends, to the uninitiated ‐charming, in fact. Yet behind closed doors, they are secretly moody, pedantic, unreasonable, uptight, rude to retail staff, authoritarian, spendthrifts, passive aggressive or functioning alcoholics. Or not pulling their weight. Or controlling and manipulative.

I feel like I see the most authentic expressions of my female friends' true selves when it's just us, or us and the DC, for sure. And we talk about this really openly.

Depends on the relationship. I was much happier without my exH. Now I'm much happier when my DP is with me. It's simply a case of does your partner make you happy

From all the women I know only one has a decent husband who is kind and pulls his weight. The rest are leeches draining the women they inflict themselves on of self esteem, money and energy.

That these women chose and stay with these men is on them surely?

@EveSix at 62 I find the same.

I think a lot of women would much prefer a man' in their life' for trips, holidays, a date night here and there but find it's the living with them , listening to the ranting, moods and having to accommodate and compromise all the time the really wearing thing- not all men are like this I know- but a great many are-

Not my experience. We have a lot of fun socialising in mixed sex groups.

Yes I’m happier! Love my adult sons and my dad. I’m not a man hater I just can’t live with one. Hated being in a relationship. Maybe they just weren’t the right ones. I tried more than once. Much happier being free and single. A lot less stressful!

But surely in the situation describe, it’s because the women (who all know one another) are trying to ensure their male partners, who presumably know everyone less well, have a good time — it’s always easier when you’re not responsible for whether someone else is enjoying themselves.And if there’s any tension in the relationship, and there often is if you’re raising small children together, of course it will come to the group occasion too.

@KimberleyClark, quit with the "it's on them" shtick. Not helpful. It can be really, really tricky to exit relationships, irrespective of how draining or annoying or frustrating or coercive or exploitative they are.
It will be a fine day when women don't seek to berate one another, however subtly or unconsciously, by insinuating that remaining in an ailing relationship is "on them". As I imagine you probably know.

@EveSix 👏 👏 👏

Very well said. There is so much victim blaming on here, which is incredibly sad and frustrating to read.

Is it not possible that when the partners of these same friends get together with a group of their own male friends they also share all the less flattering elements of their partners too?

Not just to let off steam, but because an aspect of being in a single sex group like that encourages that “tone” of sharing? You don’t feel it is the right environment to talk about how great your relationship is, you build solidarity by creating a sense of shared adversity and eye rolling exasperation ?

Then of course everyone goes home, climbs into bed and tells their partner all the shitty but fascinating bits of gossip their friends told them that evening about their partners!

@Nesbi, I see why you might think that would be plausible, but in this instance, it really is as I describe it.

I'm not talking about salacious bonding over trauma or adverse experiences or gratuitously picking over scraps of humiliation and indignation in order to elicit some kind of sense of aggrieved sisterhood.

I used the word 'disclosed' and that's what I mean, not gossiped or 'had a moan'. I'm talking about women who trust each other deeply enough to reveal that their long-term partner has made transgressions which can't be laughed off, or necessarily 'chalked up to experience'; the kinds of messy traits which firmly and irrevocably park said partner in the 'irredeemable' or 'insufferable' corner; the kind of behaviour which we'd be likely to think twice and feel ashamed to share about our partners, were our friendships of the shallow kind where we might find ourselves judged by our women friends for the indiscretions and dickishness of our spouses and significant others.

My friends and I treasure each other's trust and friendship and the idea that May would go home and tell Joe that Cerys is heartbroken because Adam is such a harsh disciplinarian that their sons hate him, feels unthinkable.

Yes

@EveSix the situation you describe with your friends doesn’t resonate at all, but I guess we are all guided by our experiences with the people we happen to know best.

I agree @EveSix

Mmm imagine if a man said they preferred a woman in their life for sex and holidays but it was living with them and listening to them that was the really wearing thing.

Being in a relationship isn't just about the fun times and yes, you have to accommodate and compromise. However if you find someone's personality such a turn-off that simply being with them is so wearing, why on earth are you with them? Do you need someone to take you on trips that much?

Have to say I don't recognise what the thread is talking about beyond what I consider normal changes in dynamic when you're hanging out with different groups of people. But then all the women I know consider their partners to be friends as well. I've been out with men who I felt "lighter" away from, and that was a sign that I shouldn't date them.

I find the whole "bonding over how awful our husbands are" thing that some women do to be quite uncomfortable, but it's not something any of my female friends do (hence that's why they're my friends). I'd hate it if our husbands/male partners got together to bitch about us.

"Only be in a relationship with someone you actually like" seems such an obvious thing to me, it's sad that it's eluded so many people.

@gannett I agree with everything you've said.

I enjoy going out with DH and I definitely don't have a better time when he's not there.

No I love spending time with Dp.
I find some women seem to take great delight in undermining there own relationships and mindsets with these enlightenment get togethers.

I think age is a big factor in this and there's a cycle to it. When women are younger they tend to enjoy the company of men because its connected with the ultimate halo goal of finding a life partner to have children. It's also always dressed up with a lot of cultural woo around "romance" and "finding the one" and all the general sense that achieving a man is important to being a success. Then you add in hormones etc and they seem like hot stuff.

After women have children and the penny drops about how much work they have been landed with, how little support they are given and what a general stitch-up romance is, men start to lose their lustre. Throw in the menopause and their general utility to women falls off a cliff.

After a while you do the mental maths and work out what you actually enjoy about their company after you've stripped out sex and the utility of someone helping you (minimally) with childcare. And it dawns on you that talking about football and housework isn't how you want to spend your free time. And suddenly women seem a whole lot more attractive.

I always knew I was child-free so it definitely wasn't about that for me. And I enjoyed the company of many, many men I didn't want romance with because they were interesting and good people - the same reasons I enjoyed the company of women.

I've never wanted anyone in my life for their "utility" to me - at least not friends or partners. Keep that unenjoyable transactional stuff for professional networking.

I'd rather not talk about either football or housework which is why I've deliberately put together a social circle, men and women, including DP, with a lot more interesting things to talk about. Whether I enjoy hanging out with someone depends on how interesting they are, not their gender.

@gannett

I know what you mean and I have never wanted anyone for their "utility" either: I've always been financially self-sufficient and raised my daughter alone. But there's a point when you're raising small children where you do become quite codependent on one another in the trenches.

You can go weeks without having a single conversation which doesn't revolve around child-rearing or housework and it's very easy to become very entrenched in roles which don't bring out either of your best.

I completely share your perspective on choosing people for their personalities and what they bring to the table. Unfortunately cohabiting and child-rearing tends to bring out the worst in men and women. It subsumes their personalities under a mountain of resentment, dull gender stereotypes and jockeying over who can get away with doing less. Marriage is not good for human relationships.

100% agree with this.

I am pre-children but have friends who are currently in the ‘realising all the work they are lumbered with just because they’re a woman’ stage after having kids.

Similarly, I’ve seen my 60-something mum and her friends who are in the post-menopausal ‘men are useless to us’ stage. My mum loves my dad but honestly at this stage I do feel like her life is much easier when he’s away or out for the day and she’s not having to put up with his grumpiness/moods and general old man moaning.

@gannett I do totally get what you mean- I guess I know a lot of very agreeable women 45 plus whose blokes are becoming less and less pleasant to live with, especially the over55s . Moody, verbally aggressive, and less and less helpful round a house. Not great I know but by then there's a lot of skin in the game.

I put YABU only.because of personal experience. When I was with my exH I met a friend out when I was with him.and the kids one day. She said the difference in me was like night and day. I really never thought of it like that until I left him, and now with new partner I can be myself and act how I like. My family tell.me it's great to see me finding myself again. DP is there 100% whether it's a good day or a bad day, and doesn't matter if I look like a hag or a queen. He stands by me and the kids (my 2 kids from previous marriage and our own DD)without question. In saying that, it's a two way street, and I fully understand what OP is saying as that's how I felt about my exH when we were together. It's different for every single relationship and I get that. It's when it has a detrimental effect on you and your family, that's when you need to perhaps address it.