To think this is outdated and needs to be removed?

[ballybean]

My son's school has an all glass isolation room in the hall with three desks, children are put there as punishment? Teachers and students walking passed

Ever thought 'the education system is shit' is because so much time, effort and funding is spent on the pupils who are disruptive, agressive and entitled? There's no chance for those who want to learn if the teacher's time is spent on crowd control, evacuation of the class when one pupil kicks off, or as suggested here, they stop teaching and start counselling the violent prepretators.

Here in my town with parents permission the secondary school has a weekend detention once a month where they clean up the beach and other open areas

I expect the key there is "with parents permission"

Doubtless some of the better parented kids turn up and maybe even have a good day, but can't you just hear it from the DPs of the rest:

"They're having a meltdown and can't get out of bed, it's 'humiliating', and what if they pick up a needle??!!!"

I think your concerns are based in a misconception that the students in there will actually feel humiliated. You're projecting on to them how you would feel. In reality, for many being visibly 'incarcerated' will actually be a badge of honour. There may be some students who value being thought of as well behaved by their peers, but they're probably unlikely to be the ones ending up in there.
Personally I think its a bad idea, because there's enough controversy to enable students with parents who hold your views to use the schools 'humiliation' of them as a smokescreen for their behaviour. And before you know it, it stops being about how Johnny verbally abused his teacher, and starts being about Johnny as 'victim'. Though tbf, I'm not sure there's any sanction where that's not a risk.

As I've said, I'm all for them getting consequences for their actions. But I think isolating them doesn't work and it's humiliating. Humiliation does not bring good behaviour (in most cases).

I also don't think detention etc works.

And the school would have whinging parents complaining that these are 'degrading' and'/or 'humiliating', tick which box matches your agenda. For a type of parent whatever a school does is wrong, it's never, ever the poor, misunderstood pupil's fault.

Why is the West Side Story song Dear Sgt Krupke now fixed in my head???

I think community service is a brilliant 'punishment' for kids. Although I'd imagine difficult to arrange as you need staff to manage it.

Another good example a local school uses is if kids don't wear their school jackets, they hang the jackets on the fence outside so they risk having their own jackets robbed. Our school just puts them on detention which does nothing

No. Because even in schools with small, well behaved classes they’re still forced to conform and learn by rote most of the time. That’s not how innovation works. That’s not how humans work. Teachers (not all) still use humiliation to achieve their means. Teachers still force KIDS to sit cross legged with their mouths shut. It goes against nature. It goes against who kids ARE. It’s ill thought out and hasn’t moved far on from its origins when kids were expected to put up, shut up and work in filthy conditions.

your argument would work if it weren’t for all the classes where this isn’t the behaviour and the kids still aren’t coming out world-changing standards

I presume this detention area is used for repeated and ongoing misbehaviour that has been sanctioned previously in other ways and this is the next step in the ladder of sanctions, before the suspension step.

Weekend detentions are a great idea. Do teachers get paid overtime for coming in on a Saturday to supervise it or how does it work in practice?

When I was at primary in the 1980s, children who were made to miss their play had to sit outside the staff room, where they would be seen by teachers going in and out, and also by all the other children going out to play, as that's where the entrance to the playground was. I was so obedient that this almost never happened to be, but near the end of my time there, I once deliberately did something that would earn me a "missed play", so that I could experience sitting there. 😀Teachers noted that I seemed a little too happy to be there. Perhaps the "badge of honour" thing is true.

(Other things that happened to naughty children were: boys who laughed when told off were made to laugh in a mirror, others who messed about in assembly were asked if they would like to sit in a pushchair, as they were behaving like babies. Those who did not follow a teacher's instructions correctly during a lesson were made to stand at the front and hold their books up.)

But I think isolating them doesn't work and it's humiliating. Humiliation does not bring good behaviour (in most cases).

I also don't think detention etc works.

If the action allows the majority of the pupils to work without the constant distraction of idiots and allows the teachers to teach without having to deal with disruptions then the action is justified, if they feel 'humiliated' then the solution is in their hands.

@ballybean you say detention does nothing, however, your son had two. Which apparently he liked as he got to stay indoors. So by your reasoning, he would carry on being late to continue to get detentions. However, you worked together so he is now not late. So, detentions did work. I suspect he actually missed hanging out with his mates/the free time that he lost whilst doing detention.
I'm unsure why litter picking outside of school is any less humiliating than being in a box ar school. More people see you picking litter, it's shame from a wider society. For me, whilst the litter picking idea maybe teaches the kids they are part of this society and their actions have consequences, I'm not really sure it's less humiliating, or more helpful in actual lesson time, than time out in the box of shame.

Using shame and humiliation to control behaviour is absolutely outdated and not effective.

Unfortunately, people don't want to hear that because instilling fear in someone else often does get the behaviour you demand in the short term. It allows them to bask in their arrogance that they've 'solved the problem' and is a quick way to assert their power over someone and feel good about themselves.

Of course there needs to be consequences for poor, rude or harmful behaviour but this is not the way. When people are frightened, shamed or angry there isn't usually much room for self-reflection. That's true for adults so why anyone thinks children will be masters of it and 'learn their lesson' is beyond me.

if they don’t like the thought of being humiliated they could behave.

Says it all really.

Yes, my point was I don't think most would find it humiliating. Many students who repeatedly misbehave are very happy to be thought of and shown to be rule breakers. So, even if the intent was to humiliate, then i doubt it would succeed. What consequences would you suggest for students who do not see good behaviour as something to aspire to, have so little regard for the opinions of those in authority that they don't even want their approval, and have their self esteem rooted in the admiration of their peers for their rebellion?

@Cactusdaff you're right. I am interested to know your solution for the disruptive kids who are kicking off in every lesson and ruining other kids education.
I do not think using shame is right, but I do think it's right to remove kids who are abusive, violent, disruptive. And once removed, I'm not sure where else they go?

Not ideal but I'm guessing school has no other space. My dc high school is max capacity.

I’m just so relieved mine are in private school.

This would be unheard of at my dc’s schools.

@ballybean so you think if kids don't wear school sanctioned jackets, they deserve the risk of being robbed, but if a kid continually disrupts the learning of others they don't deserve to be removed from the class they're disrupting?

No that's not what I'm saying at all! I'm saying that give the kids punishments that actually work. The kids in other school always wear their school jackets now, my school repeatedly get detentions for wearing own jacket...

I don’t advocate smacking children, I do believe that when the cane and the slipper was given at school, kids were less feral than they are today.

Why do you see it as humiliating?

Instead look at it as the rest of the children that don't want to leave school without an education can listen to what the Teacher is teaching them in a peaceful setting.

I don't see it as more humiliating than wearing a high vis jacket doing cleaning on Sat.

Yes I do agree that the behaviour needs to be removed. And the child/ren in question need to go somewhere else to keep others safe - and in fact I agree that there need to be consequences for that behaviour, I'm not all airy-fairy-poor-darling. But it doesn't have to be done in a glass box where everyone can see. No good can come from that. There must be other spaces that can be used - or window coverings can stop people seeing in?

Obviously addressing the root cause of all bad behaviour and fixing the psychological, socioeconomic, hormonal, misjudged, dysregulayted, environmental causes of it isn't possible each and every time a problem arises in a public school room, especially given the already monumental strain on teachers. And I don't have all the answers. But the absence of a perfect solution does not justify using a harmful one.

Ok so what do you suggest is the punishment for repeatedly disrupting other students in class, so that the students who want to learn are given the opportunity to do just that? All well and good suggesting solutions that would take time to put into effect, what do the kids who want to learn do in the meantime? They are the ones being punished by not punishing the offenders there and then! It shouldn't take weeks or months of disruption for them, while the disruptive ones are having their behaviour dealt with gradually and "gently"

@ballybean if your only issue is that its a glass box then I'll agree with you, if your issue includes the children being removed from the class to perform their work elsewhere then we aren't in agreement.