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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That puberty blockers should not be promoted for children by any charities or celebrities for children.

282 replies

WandaWomblesaurus · 13/03/2024 00:04

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-68549091.amp

https://archive.ph/hmIvY

Loads of news today about the NHS stopping puberty blockers being given to children who think they are trans. Puberty blockers are sometimes prescribed for children who have precocious puberty, however a narrative that has been pushed by Mermaids, Stonewall and celebrities like India Willoughby and Emma Watson (who gave a large donation to Mermaids) - that puberty blockers are safe and "lifesaving"

WPATH guidelines in the USA which the UK NHS have followed in procedure have had leaked documents and videos showing that they knew that children didn't have the ability to understand the long term effects.

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/09/disturbing-leaks-from-us-gender-group-wpath-ring-alarm-bells-in-nhs

https://archive.ph/h0BtF

And a new Finnish Study debunks the idea that children who say they are trans are more suicidal https://archive.ph/h0BtF

However Mermaids, Stonewall and India Willoughby are pushing puberty blockers as safe.

https://x.com/stonewalluk/status/1767603259932361036?s=

https://www.tiktok.com/@mermaidsgenderr*/photo/7345520902936726816?isfrommwebapp=1&senderdevice=mobile&senderrweb_id=7345629783211378209

https://x.com/indiawilloughby/status/1767595379921404151?s=46

AIBU to think that anyone pushing puberty blockers at this point is unethical? And that they should never have been allowed to be given to children who did not need them for precocious puberty where the risks are weighed up against the side effects and they are only used short term?

OP posts:
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AutumnCrow · 14/03/2024 05:54

“If you were aware of the meaning of zero sum bias, you'd recognise it instantly as a common conversational tool, particularly on this board.”

I don’t understand if you mean mean the actual doing of this postulated thing; or people literally posting the words ‘zero sum bias’.

But it is early.

Alcyoneus · 14/03/2024 06:28

Puberty blockers? You mean chemical castration for children?

Helleofabore · 14/03/2024 07:25

I think someone attempting to portray the frustration at communicating with a poster that actually made no effort to engage beyond their own decision to not read content because that discussion is best left to the experts as a ‘zero sum bias’ is perhaps displaying their own bias here. Offering sympathy to a poster who came to offer an opinion of ‘the experts know best’ while ignoring the experts who are pointing to the issues seems to be rather downplaying the actions of that poster. That is absolutely fine, but that does need to be acknowledged.

I believe the treatment for precocious puberty with these drugs still has potential significant side effects but so much has been learned in women’s voices being heard about the damage to their bodies long term to shape the treatment standards used today. As a pp kindly explained up thread. Treating precocious puberty though, is nothing like what is happening to stop puberty from happening in this cohort. One is slowing down bodies natural process that was happening too early, the other is preventing that process to happen altogether or preventing it from progressing.

Why has a group in society been allowed to be experimented on removing the bodies maturing process, in a completely healthy body, when fundamentally this has been done for appearance? It is a form of extreme body modification that then results in a lifetime medical patient.

What other group of people would this kind of treatment be viewed as acceptable? or ethical? And yet, there are many ways to dismiss what is happening. One is to assert that there will be rare cases where this should happen. This is a position considered one of moderation, positioning any other position as extreme.

And yet, it is unworkable completely. Because who decides which rare case will benefit here, what defines that rare case to be a worthy recipient vs others? Or is the issue as many of us has been pointing to wildly, that the system is broken and those very same experts considered expert enough to listen to who state these drugs are safe, are a major part of the issue in the first place?

So, why do some people use those terms of ‘rare cases’? To make themselves feel like they are the kind ones, the ones who are, to them, not extreme or intolerant.

When the reality is, it is not a ‘kind’ position for the children left open to these treatments supported by some people either unable or unwilling to read and to analyse the information before casting their opinion about ‘being moderate’. Talking about the ‘rare cases’ is an empty platitude when you are discussing the treatment of children with healthy bodies.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 07:31

AutumnCrow · 14/03/2024 05:54

“If you were aware of the meaning of zero sum bias, you'd recognise it instantly as a common conversational tool, particularly on this board.”

I don’t understand if you mean mean the actual doing of this postulated thing; or people literally posting the words ‘zero sum bias’.

But it is early.

To be honest, I think it's just someone trying to look clever but is totally blind to their own idiocy and their total lack of knowledge and understanding of good medical practice and different practical applications of drugs to achieve a different medical outcome.

Must be my bias towards actually having medical ethics talking. Rather than thinking that Mengele did brilliant work that is worthy of accolades due to advances in medicine that he pioneered.

Shrug.

RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 07:33

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 05:32

@RedToothBrush

When your best argument to give kids significant very strong drug which have life-changing implications and no evidence to support the argument that they have clinical benefit in a climate where the activists supporting this have tried for years to actively STOP research and undermine standard clinic safeguarding measures. To the point that the NHS has now said there's an ethical and clinical problem with continuing on this pathway:
To reiterate, I was addressing the other poster, not you, about the posting style of people on this thread rather than the content of this thread. Earlier in the thread, I did say that the medicine had other uses than blocking puberty in older children (ie. precocious puberty). I don't necessarily agree with it being used it other circumstances, no.

The failure to engage with concerns about why so many children identifying as trans are either autistic, gay, have experienced sexual trauma of some kind or have activist parents (or have multiples of these) is a massive red flag. Until we have established why this is happening and what it is that is shaping these patterns there is a massive question about comorbidity and ethically it's a none starter.
A red flag on whose part? Who are you talking to here?

You have 'zero sum bias thinking'.This is just word salad bollocks to try and intimidate and look clever. it is an argument which has absolutely no substance to it whatsoever.
Not at all. If you were aware of the meaning of zero sum bias, you'd recognise it instantly as a common conversational tool, particularly on this board.

See what I mean about this post not actually having anything of substance to add to the conversation.

EasternStandard · 14/03/2024 07:33

People did post links and information so that claim isn’t the case

But there wasn’t an answer on why NHS didn’t involve experts which didn’t make sense really

ArabellaScott · 14/03/2024 07:38

redalex261 · 13/03/2024 21:07

I’m sorry @newyorker74, this is not “an emerging medical area” at best it’s administration of an untested experimental treatment on a vulnerable group who lack the emotional maturity to grasp the actual and potential impacts of these treatments. At worst it’s unethical doctors exploiting vulnerable people for financial gain or, well, just to see what happens.

There is no unbiased data on efficacy or outcomes. There is no proper research. The overwhelming majority of youth presenting at these clinics have co-morbidities including ASD, OCD, anxiety, eating disorders. Many have suffered trauma or abuse. These kids need counselling and talking therapies - they are not getting their other issues resolved but instead having brief appointments, diagnosis then hormones. The personal and financial costs will be huge for each patient, regardless if they feel it’s a failure or a success.

As for comparisons with pregnancy risks - well, lets agree there is plenty of data, research and longitudinal studies on how that pans out….

this is not “an emerging medical area” at best it’s administration of an untested experimental treatment on a vulnerable group who lack the emotional maturity to grasp the actual and potential impacts of these treatments. At worst it’s unethical doctors exploiting vulnerable people for financial gain or, well, just to see what happens.

There is no unbiased data on efficacy or outcomes. There is no proper research. The overwhelming majority of youth presenting at these clinics have co-morbidities including ASD, OCD, anxiety, eating disorders. Many have suffered trauma or abuse. These kids need counselling and talking therapies - they are not getting their other issues resolved but instead having brief appointments, diagnosis then hormones. The personal and financial costs will be huge for each patient, regardless if they feel it’s a failure or a success.

All of that. It's a fucking outrage. These poor kids. I'm also very concerned for the kids once they turn 17, who are then thrown to the wolves. This is a vulnerable cohort who doesnt suddenly become not-vulnerable aged 17. They certainly need support and care.

This care should be evidence based, not predicated on the deluded idea that anyone can change sex and that a solution to the mental illness of body dysphoria is extreme plastic surgery.

Helleofabore · 14/03/2024 07:39

The question is, and it always has been, where is the evidence that this treatment improves the lives of those who are receiving treatment for this purpose?

And if numerous world health organisations, filled with ‘experts’ are saying the evidence does reach the bar needed to continue this treatment standard, why are those with high personal investment simply offering mantra like phrases to refute those world health agencies? There has been absolutely nothing released by WPATH to show the evidence they declare is there.

And even posters on this thread have declared the usage “safe” without ever providing any evidence to support this. So it is not a MN phenomenon. It is one though that very evident in all the interactions of this group demanding that the care is ‘safe’ in desperation that if enough people say it, society will put pressure on those experts to reverse the decision.

Once you recognise the emotional manipulation aspect used, it is impossible to unsee it.

That is why you get some posters who will use what could be described as appeals to authority such as ‘they are experts so they must know best’ to try to shape the discussion they find uncomfortable.

That is why you will get some posters who will leverage victimisation that has been exaggerated to portray those attempting to interact as extreme. Catastrophisation and polarisation are cognitive distortions being used to emotionally manipulate readers in an attempt to discredit what others are saying.

When support relies on emotional manipulation rather than presenting facts, evidence and interrogated, coherent and logically consistent thoughts, people should be aware of that emotional manipulation for what it is. A lack of evidence to support what then is exposed to be a belief.

AlisonDonut · 14/03/2024 07:56

The 'evidence' was that they surveyed people after giving them treatment and compared them to after the treatment.

However what they did was base this survey on their actual sex prior to treatment and after treatment, based their survey on the 'changed gender'.

So to 'prove' it was 'successful', they asked girls prior to treatment about their feelings based on being a girl, and after, based on feelings on being a boy.

So no actual comparison could ever be made.

No control group was ever looked at or surveyed or assessed.

No long term follow ups were made.

No assessments of detransitioners were ever made. They were dropped from their books the moment they detransitioned.

Helleofabore · 14/03/2024 08:17

The dissonance is clanging very loudly now Alison. There is apparently evidence out there that proves ‘some’ posters claims of being ‘safe’ that world health agencies cannot find AND that WPATH cannot produce to refute the report written about just how little evidence WPATH has.

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 08:20

@RedToothBrush

See what I mean about this post not actually having anything of substance to add to the conversation.

I wasn't attempting to add to the conversation. I was talking to one poster in particular.

Kucinghitam · 14/03/2024 08:22

I for one am extremely grateful to the few Brave Stunning Righteous voices on this thread. Please, in all seriousness, keep posting.

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 08:22

@RedToothBrush

To be honest, I think it's just someone trying to look clever but is totally blind to their own idiocy and their total lack of knowledge and understanding of good medical practice and different practical applications of drugs to achieve a different medical outcome.

Excuse me? That's a bit uncalled for. I don't see how you could possibly extrapolate that from my posts.

Helleofabore · 14/03/2024 08:36

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 08:20

@RedToothBrush

See what I mean about this post not actually having anything of substance to add to the conversation.

I wasn't attempting to add to the conversation. I was talking to one poster in particular.

Of course, people can see you were posting for the benefit of one single poster. It doesn’t mean that no one else should interact with what you said.

By posting on the thread, however, you were ‘adding to the conversation’.

anyolddinosaur · 14/03/2024 08:43

@NefertitiV There has been a lot of explanation on this thread about why a long term enquiry staffed by highly respected NHS people has recommended banning puberty blockers when there is no proven gain. If someone wants to dispute why that is necessary then they need to explain where the evidence of gain comes from and why the enquiry didnt hear it.

Puberty blockers are being treated as no different to any other medication, the NHS doesnt prescribe it unless there is a benefit that outweighs the harm. Why do you want to argue against that?

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 09:37

anyolddinosaur · 14/03/2024 08:43

@NefertitiV There has been a lot of explanation on this thread about why a long term enquiry staffed by highly respected NHS people has recommended banning puberty blockers when there is no proven gain. If someone wants to dispute why that is necessary then they need to explain where the evidence of gain comes from and why the enquiry didnt hear it.

Puberty blockers are being treated as no different to any other medication, the NHS doesnt prescribe it unless there is a benefit that outweighs the harm. Why do you want to argue against that?

Where have I argued against it?

Poinsettiasarevile · 14/03/2024 09:56

I think posters like @newyorker74 and @NefertitiV demonstrate some of the reasons why we have ended up in a position with vulnerable, complex, distressed children have been given puberty blockers despite there being no robust evidence of benefit and growing evidence of harm. The whataboutery, ignoring the expert opinions offered up, taking offence at the tone of the discourse and adopting victimhood.

But you are right, discussing this topic on Mumsnet is not for the faint hearted. It is full of people, some with relevant expertise, many who have had to become experts. There are many parents on here who have had to battle to try and keep their kids safe. Some unfortunately have not been able to do this.

So, yes, if you want to defend the use of puberty blockers in children, you will need to come armed with something more than 'be kind' or 'what about suicide rates' or 'this should be between patient and doctor". This is dangerous and you will be called on it. The stakes are too high for niceties.

HardyCrow · 14/03/2024 10:10

@Poinsettiasarevile I heartily agree.

EasternStandard · 14/03/2024 10:11

@Poinsettiasarevile great post

SabrinaThwaite · 14/03/2024 10:26

This is you right @NefertitiV ?

Calling women TERFs on this thread just a few hours ago?

That puberty blockers should not be promoted for children by any charities or celebrities for children.
That puberty blockers should not be promoted for children by any charities or celebrities for children.
RedToothBrush · 14/03/2024 10:29

SabrinaThwaite · 14/03/2024 10:26

This is you right @NefertitiV ?

Calling women TERFs on this thread just a few hours ago?

Amazing.

anyolddinosaur · 14/03/2024 10:36

@NefertitiV Why are you here, other than to be insulting?

NefertitiV · 14/03/2024 11:07

@RedToothBrush @SabrinaThwaite @anyolddinosaur

Amazing.

Sorry, is TERF an insult to you? I don't think you have any cause to be amazed, anyway, given you are fairly good at dishing out insults yourself - like this one, calling me "totally blind to their own idiocy and their total lack of knowledge and understanding of good medical practice". Amazing.

Why are you here, other than to be insulting?
Because I'm allowed to be, and I was responding to someone specific, as I've said ad nauseum.

Karensalright · 14/03/2024 11:10

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