Subsidised childcare va care home fees

[MrBanana]

Discussing the introduction of 15 free hours for two year olds with friends (which I think is flawed but that’s not the point of this post). Friend 1 said childcare has to be made free. I disagree, there’s no political appetite for that. People of retirement age feel quite strongly that parents should be responsible for their own children. They’re the ones who vote in the largest numbers.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t agree that we somehow have it easier. We are told we have to be responsible for our own children. But we can’t now survive on one salary alone. Childcare is now more expensive and inadequately funded. Everyone I know with a two year old has seen their nursery bill increase in anticipation of the “free hours”
to compensate for it.

But then it struck me that these people are the same people who have “worked all their life” and don’t feel they should have to pay their care home fees and if they do, complain about it being unfair. Healthcare is still free to them, whereas we are finding it increasingly difficult to get a dentist for example.

It just struck me how hypocritical the whole argument is - we are supposed to be responsible for our children, by virtue of them being our children, whilst simultaneously working. But the current cohort of retirement age are complaining about, and want to avoid, being financially responsible for themselves! Most won’t have been paying taxes whilst receiving the benefits we’re now paying for childcare/dentistry etc.

Im not sure that’s the best structured argument but I hope I've made my point well enough to be understood.

No. You’ve misunderstood.

Youre saying having children is a choice. But not having children doesn’t help the elderly either.

The birth rate is declining, the population is aging. This has a negative impact on the economy whereas you seem to suggest the answer is making a choice not to have children, as though that will benefit somehow. It won’t, the economy will be worse off not better.

I'm in favour of free childcare from birth and free social/medical care for the elderly, but I don't live in an Utopia last time I checked. Taxes should be directed towards these things rather than personal get rich schemes by short term government ministers.
However, I was someone who didnt get maternity pay, couldn't return to work as no childminders in rural area, playgroup only available 2 mornings/week and only nursery charging £36/day. When my take home pay was approx £180/week. No benefits helping out then. And, yes of course that 10 years out of the workforce had an impact on my earning ability afterwards, so low pay jobs, no pension, no savings. Not looking forward to later years that's for sure. No sunset golf memberships or long distance cruises for me. Still, as long as I stay well I'm capable of being free childcare for my gc.

But we can’t now survive on one salary alone. Childcare is now more expensive and inadequately funded. Everyone I know with a two year old has seen their nursery bill increase

You plan and save accordingly before having children. Children are a privilege, not a right. The taxpayer should not be subsiding peoples children. If you can't afford them, don't have them.

The issue is intergenerational inequality due to housing vs salaries & lack of social housing & then wages with no growth since 2008!!!!

Add a massive tax burden & with public services already underinvested it’s a disaster

You plan and save accordingly before having children. Children are a privilege, not a right. The taxpayer should not be subsiding peoples children. If you can't afford them, don't have them.

Hence the low birth rates… what qualifies as been able to afford dc? Why is ok to subsidise pension credit?

I’ll repeat some previous comments:-

Who do you propose staffs the care homes if we all chose not to have children.

Old age is inevitable, can you not also plan and save accordingly? Why should the current working population subsidise it?

What do you think would happen if no-one had any children? How many of your essential services are provided by people younger than you? Whose tax is going to pay your pension if there aren't any younger people?

Society relies on people having children, subsidising childcare is an investment in the future and in women's careers.

Some posters seem incapable of engaging with the concept of an aging population being an issue for everyone.
https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/key-issues-parliament-2015/social-change/ageing-population/

https://ifs.org.uk/articles/economic-consequences-uks-ageing-population

Can we stop using simplistic agist divisiveness and instead focus on the ideas and relative merits of them

Because as soon as you start off with agism in your primary point I find it very hard to listen to anything else you might have to say because I like agism as much as racism or sexism or ableism - the use of such stereotypes suggests you have limited thinking capabilities and that the rest of what you might say is tripe

That's not always true but once you lob an insult ( that old people all think alike and think wrongly ) it's hard to support what you might say even if I agree !

Well that's where we disagree. Having a car is a privilege, having a child is a fundamental right, I feel. Same as access to clean water, food and a safe home.

A society where only the elite can afford a child is not a society I'd want to be part of, and you should probably reconsider your stance on that too

OK, let’s all have a word with biology and make the best time to have children not when you’re towards the start of your working life, with a lower salary and trying to get a stable place to live.

You have an awful lot more time to save for retirement than you do for children.

Not true.
30 years ago all of my friends work full-time, we still do, no free child places and nursery fees were high, I was paying £50 a day for DS, it was private care for children, not many nurseries that took children 8-6 so nothing local and there was also a huge recession.
It was also the period of a huge rise in un-married mothers.
Do I expect to pay for a care home - of course but I've just been to see one with my best friend that is 1K + a week for her parents that isn't even full on care.

Things weren't easy, I haven't been able to get a NHS dentist for years and if you think things like getting speech therapy were easy again you are wrong, I pushed and pushed for my DS's autism diagnosis and ended up having to pay for it, childrens ADHD and they like weren't picked up and my own ADHD landed me in 'special classes' with naughty kids, I was classed as naughty.
Money and lack of support were as real then as they are now!

'Old people' most likely cared for their own elderly parents, either sacrificed one parent's salary or paid entirely for childcare fir their own children.They are now faced with paying for their own social care as well as their tax dollars going to pay for their grandkids childcare.
I can see this side!

@Ezzee why do you think more mothers don’t work now?

Can we stop using simplistic agist divisiveness and instead focus on the ideas and relative merits of them

I agree but it’s hard to have a healthy debate when many refuse to acknowledge facts.

Re investing in childcare:-

The case for investment is irrefutable: 1.7 million women are currently restricted from working more by childcare costs. Investment would unlock £28 billion annually, over four and a half times the net investment required calculated after job creation, consumption and social security savings.

The investment required would pay for itself 4.5x over!

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/116231/pdf/

How are they also contributing to their grandchildren’s childcare whilst they’re not economically productive?

My DM is early 70’s and paid for childcare as she worked full time as like most families now needed two full time incomes to survive and she’s in a private £1600 per week nursing home.

How are they also contributing to their grandchildren’s childcare whilst they’re not economically productive?

By paying tax on their pension.

'Old people' most likely cared for their own elderly parents, either sacrificed one parent's salary or paid entirely for childcare fir their own children

This is just nonsense. Old people aren’t some special group where everyone is prudent & responsible.

They are now faced with paying for their own social care as well as their tax dollars going to pay for their grandkids childcare.

And their gc will be working till their 70s despite no increase in healthy life expectancy, I don’t want them for my dc.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/changing-cost-childcare

“the cost of a part-time nursery place for a child under 2 grew by 60% in cash terms between 2010 and 2021 – twice as fast as average earnings, and much higher than the 24% growth in overall prices in the same period.”

i haven’t time to find something for the period you’re discussing but the point is illustrated well above. Childcare costs have risen much faster than earnings.

these are the same people that raised their children with the help of free childcare from their parents...whereas our generation have to pay for childcare because grandparents on the whole don't want to look after anyone's kids

Pensioners have the same tax free income as everyone else, the thing they don't pay is NI so would not have benefited from the budget this time round, I pay tax on my pension as do a lot of pensioners apart from the very poor pensioners that will be on pension credit. Pensioners are more likely to have investments for income to top up their pension so may also pay tax on those

But then it struck me that these people are the same people who have “worked all their life” and don’t feel they should have to pay their care home fees

Who are these people? I don't think there is anyone over the age of 60 who doesn't know they will have to pay their own care costs when they get old. Many worry that their spouse will be left homeless to cover care costs.

You are right about appalling child care provision in Britain but mixing this up with old age care, which you clearly know nothing about, is daft.

I can 100% confirm that is the case . Older people who complain generally in the context that their kids will loose inheritance…not because they want the money for themselves. How can you spend your money on luxuries if you are immobile,incontinent,unable to carry out own personal care or have limited Mental Capacity?!!!
Just another goady thread…someone is bored today!