Subsidised childcare va care home fees

[MrBanana]

Discussing the introduction of 15 free hours for two year olds with friends (which I think is flawed but that’s not the point of this post). Friend 1 said childcare has to be made free. I disagree, there’s no political appetite for that. People of retirement age feel quite strongly that parents should be responsible for their own children. They’re the ones who vote in the largest numbers.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t agree that we somehow have it easier. We are told we have to be responsible for our own children. But we can’t now survive on one salary alone. Childcare is now more expensive and inadequately funded. Everyone I know with a two year old has seen their nursery bill increase in anticipation of the “free hours”
to compensate for it.

But then it struck me that these people are the same people who have “worked all their life” and don’t feel they should have to pay their care home fees and if they do, complain about it being unfair. Healthcare is still free to them, whereas we are finding it increasingly difficult to get a dentist for example.

It just struck me how hypocritical the whole argument is - we are supposed to be responsible for our children, by virtue of them being our children, whilst simultaneously working. But the current cohort of retirement age are complaining about, and want to avoid, being financially responsible for themselves! Most won’t have been paying taxes whilst receiving the benefits we’re now paying for childcare/dentistry etc.

Im not sure that’s the best structured argument but I hope I've made my point well enough to be understood.

So you're not in the same boat then.

Only about 15% end up in a care home, though the amount of fretting on these threads you would think it was a lot more

So what do you want to happen now?

i have a 5 year old and a 2 year old. My nursery fees have gone up 20% in 4 years.

For the same nursery, same room, I was paying £57 in 2020. Today the cost for my toddler before I set out for work was £73!

Just stating facts that you don't have to pay though some may want to pay, there is a difference

You are also assuming that the elderly who require care and their families all begrudge the payments for their care.

As the adult children of elderly parents, we also continue to pay our own taxes too (38% of my salary is taken in deductions) which would stop if I gave up work to provide full time care.

My parents worked their whole life and paid taxes. My DM inherited my DF’s estate. He would want her to be well cared for and to have choices about her care.

Yes, our inheritance is being eaten up (more useful, given property prices, to support our DC’s than us). £4,890 per month, every month ( more than childcare costs).

More palatable would be a limit on what anyone has to spend, letting family benefit from just a little of my parents hard earned money.
And a different slant all together, please give people a chance to make a choice. More devastating than any cost, is seeing my DM fade away, frequently ill, no quality of life due to COVID induced paranioa and dementia. She would HATE to be alive like this.

See my post. Before I set out for work today my costs were:-
DS2 £73
DS1 £16 (wrap around care).

So where before, your situation was quite isolated - because your DD is disabled, now the situation is just standard for all parents.

It's a choice to have children. It's not a choice to get old.

We and then I, couldn't have afforded more than one child in nursery. There was no help at all in 1997.

What services supported us that don't support you? There were no subsidised nurseries or childcare or funded hours.
Also inflation was very high in the seventies and eighties higher than it is now. At one point we were paying 16% interest on our mortgage in 1980 inflation was 20%.. At the same time there was a promotion freeze and pay freeze in the public sector where my husband worked for ten years.
Also my dentist went private a few years ago my grandchildren and children go to NHS dentists.
Just to reiterate I don't resent any funding paid to young families I want my children and grandchildren to have a better life than I did. But I think it's wrong to think we had access to a lot of support we didn't.

The problem is that governments are crap at quick solutions that actually save money, the stitch in time that saves 9 (or throwing away the whole item).

How many people lose their jobs while waiting for a relatively simple surgery?

How many nurses are off sick on waiting lists rather than working?

How many people lose so much muscle waiting for the hip/knee replacement that the operation is less successful or they need a bigger more expensive operation?

How many "easy" appendix ops end up much more difficult as the surgery gets bumped until it bursts and takes 4 times as long with a less good outcome?

How many patients awaiting cardiology review end up suffering a disabling heart attack or stroke and end up needing more care?

How many children linger on waiting lists for SLT assessment and end up years behind when early intervention and some simple strategies could have enabled them to keep up with their peers affecting long term earning power?

The UK "society" is penny wise and pound foolish - Scandinavian society appears from the outside to be less so with more investment in the long term future!

I went back to work when DS was 3 months as maternity pay wasn't as good as it is now, many DC we're in nursery very young.

Personally I’d be more than happy to pay more tax for good public services such as subsidised childcare/care homes and have always voted that way. But the theory is that people don’t vote for higher taxes - and so nothing changes. Most recent example was Theresa May’s efforts to reform care costs - blamed for taking her from expected majority to hung government.

Maybe if subsidised childcare was introduced at the same time as subsidised social and nursing care, that might work…? Then everyone would feel like a potential winner?

Indeed. "The current cohort" - who the feck ARE these people, please? The only ones I ever hear suggesting they shouldn't have to pay are the people with quite a lot of cash, property wealth, etc. Which is FAR from the majority of elderly people.

Meanwhile, those arguing for free childcare - just how many children should the taxpayer have to subsidise for you, please?

Saying 'It's the younger people that don't want to see their inheritance go on the care home' is not a fact.

Even in the 1990’s/early 2000’s I worked full time as a teacher and after child care costs and fuel was left with the grand sum of £50 per week for my efforts. (and 15.5% interest on our mortgage).

I made the effort to work for the sake of my career, I wanted to maintain my permanent contract ( which I have - 35 years service).

You had a career to maintain. What about people in private sector admin and retail jobs which are less well paid? Society needs these women to continue working to get more taxes, security, pension provision etc but if they're working for negative money after costs they're probably less likely to have that option. Which is bad for society

The choice is only a choice on an individual level. "Enough" people need to "choose" to have children for society to continue to function.

1. My parents died (Mum aged 81 in 2017, Dad aged 89 in 2022). There was no free or subsidised childcare when they were bringing up their 3 children - Mum had to be a SAHM, then work only part-time, they never earned enough to buy a property.
2. Mum got paid-for end-of-life care at home for 9 months whilst she died painfully of lung cancer. Everyone gets paid-for end-of-life care if they need it, it is not means-tested. It consisted of 3 20 minute carer visits a day to do basic hygiene care and they were able to get her into the shower once a week.
3. Dad had to pay for his carer visits once he needed them (physical disability plus dementia). For the last 8 months of his life he was in a care home and paid for it out of savings, pension, etc.
4. Like all pensioners, they were as entitled to free NHS care as non-pensioners are. They had to pay for dentistry, as all pensioners do. They got prescriptions free - that's the only additional NHS benefit I can think of.

It's quite astonishing how many Mumsnet posters - who otherwise claim they love their parents and grandparents - seem to resent the elderly getting fucking ANYTHING, despite having paid tax and NI all their lives. It's not a race to the bottom!

So, your anecdotal example is your evidence for all older people thinking this way, is it?

Not to be harsh but the choices are kind of the same for both

You can choose how old you get.

And the solution for both is the same sadly

Your mother didn’t pay anything really in all her life though.

And then there are those of us somewhere in the middle who had kids pre free/subsidised childcare and had to change jobs etc to just make it work somehow, and have paid into pensions since we started working, who will also be screwed for care home fees etc…who said life was fair?

"Mostly" - I really would like to see your evidence for that. Absolute nonsense.

There may be an element of "I paid for childcare 50 years ago, why should young people have it any easier than me" which I think some PPs indeed mentioned.
It's not so much who is better off financially is that I think people are unable to see benefits of subsidised childcare because that's the way things have been done in the UK for as long as they can remember and the good old "where is the magic money tree" argument is quite hard to shake off.
Many countries in Europe have heavily subsidised childcare and the world did not fall apart. In fact, I would argue that economic benefits of subsidised childcare are immense. Not to mention that we cannot have a serious conversation about gender equality unless we make provisions for childcare which don't wipe out mother's ability to return to work full time if they wish to do so.
And I have no skin in the game as I am relatively close to retirement age and have no nursery-age children.

Did you read where I said she was a SAHM, then worked part-time? Are you suggesting she didn't pay tax and NI? I can assure you she did.