Subsidised childcare va care home fees

[MrBanana]

Discussing the introduction of 15 free hours for two year olds with friends (which I think is flawed but that’s not the point of this post). Friend 1 said childcare has to be made free. I disagree, there’s no political appetite for that. People of retirement age feel quite strongly that parents should be responsible for their own children. They’re the ones who vote in the largest numbers.

I don’t disagree, but I don’t agree that we somehow have it easier. We are told we have to be responsible for our own children. But we can’t now survive on one salary alone. Childcare is now more expensive and inadequately funded. Everyone I know with a two year old has seen their nursery bill increase in anticipation of the “free hours”
to compensate for it.

But then it struck me that these people are the same people who have “worked all their life” and don’t feel they should have to pay their care home fees and if they do, complain about it being unfair. Healthcare is still free to them, whereas we are finding it increasingly difficult to get a dentist for example.

It just struck me how hypocritical the whole argument is - we are supposed to be responsible for our children, by virtue of them being our children, whilst simultaneously working. But the current cohort of retirement age are complaining about, and want to avoid, being financially responsible for themselves! Most won’t have been paying taxes whilst receiving the benefits we’re now paying for childcare/dentistry etc.

Im not sure that’s the best structured argument but I hope I've made my point well enough to be understood.

Pregnant then screwed shared some interesting research that showed that subsidised childcare not only paid for itself but because women were earning more, would make the country better off by way of their taxes etc. it’s just there’s not the appetite to make that investment.

It all has to be paid for somehow, I'm in favour of higher taxes and higher public spending and more favourable polices for parents (I'm childfree myself but we as a society need to be more supportive of parents).

I also think we need a proper look at social care and care homes for the elderly. I do think that many who feel aggrieved about favourable policies for the elderly and their care would also be miffed if everything they expected to inherit from their parents went to providing their care.

It seems some Scandinavian countries do things like this better than us and I would be happy to pay more tax to have a better system that supports everyone, as it is we will end up like the US.

The ridiculous thing is that employment protections last 1 year but childcare subsidies start at/after 2. If someone is on a marginal wage vs cost of childcare they are likely to struggle most in this year. Line up childcare subsidy with (a) actual cost to provide childcare and (b) the end of maternity protections. Then women don't end up having a 3-5 year gap where they are cash richer for staying at home than continuing to work (future investments don't put food on table/pay rent and bills now).

@cheapskatemum @ohtowinthelottery

I understand that. But you will have benefitted from it for a greater proportion of your life. My kids for example have never seen an NHS dentist and I am at a time where I have far more expenses, because of my dependents, so arguably the need now is greatest.

I don't understand who these elderly curmudgeons are. All the pensioners I know campaigned for free childcare and equal paternity leave in the 1980s and still feel the same about it now.

Excellent. My sort of people 🙌🏻

Conversely I have a friend who despises any of “her taxes” being directed in anyway towards children, but begrudges the prospect of paying for her own care and can’t see the hypocrisy, which is the thought from which this thread evolved.

Not always the case. Recent threads:

• a woman who spent a lot of her savings on her flat and holidays, with her daughter (the OP) acknowledging that she would be expected to provide care to her mother if no money left for carers to come in
• a woman who lives at her daughter’s, refuses to sell her house and lives off her daughter

A lot of people won't see them as comparable, having children is a nice to have, paying care home fees never has and never will be a nice to have. Having children is a choice, therefore it's not unthinkable to have to contribute to that cost. Getting old and sick and needing a care home isn't a choice, so I don't think it's something that people happily save for. I'm not saying it's my opinion, I'm just saying how i don't think people see them as comparable.

I mean it's relentless and mumsnet thinks its "robust" debate or some such pish.

YANBU

Elderly people who have never paid in as much into the system as todays workforce, expecting their care to be covered by taxing the young whilst also begrudging them subsidized childcare is just plain silliness, let alone hypocrisy.

and for those moaning about the generalizations, on average only 1/3 women worked in the 50s. The current set of ‘elderly’ people are mostly made up of people who never paid into the system and are taking a lot out. Or paid into the system but not much, earning potential for the women who did work was low, and taxes were lower in general so even the men who worked didn’t pay a fraction into the system as todays working ‘young’ do.

Yes I agree.

I think that in itself has some flaws. Ultimately we need the next generation to keep working as a population. Look at the issues in China of an aging population. It’s not in anyone’s interests.

You do not have to pay for care or provide it for any relatives, you just say no, you are under no obligation at all to pay, if they end up on a park bench so be it.

Thank you for putting it more eloquently than me.

Is that what you did to your parents, did they end up on a bench?

I always wonder whether people of any age who oppose childcare subsidy are willing and able to manage without the labour of all the people who rely on those subsidies to work. Some probably are. I bet not all of them.

I don't understand your argument at all. I am one of those :old people' you mention

I don't think younger people have it easier today but we certainly didn't have it as easy as you seem to think either.
We had to pay for pre school so our children only went two mornings a week and we struggled to pay that. I put my career on hold for eight years because I couldn't afford a childminder and transport costs. When I went back to work I had to go part time as we couldn't afford childcare so I never caught up meaning my pension is tiny.We had no savings at all
During the years we had to live on one salary we didn't have treats .We managed to pay our mortgage but only just with interest rates of 16% at one point! My husband and I didn't have time alone or trips away without the children. We visited family and that was our holiday.
Young people today have higher expectations and that is great but we certainly didn't have it easy.
We didn't receive any help from family as they weren't in a position to provide it.
I provide a lot of free childcare for my grandchildren and support to my children and that is my choice I don't see it as a duty. I don't object to funded childcare either but I also absolutely do think care home fees should be funded. My generation are not the money grabbing people and the past certainly wasn't a land of milk and honey!

To put it another way - we’re heavily taxed, whilst working, to sustain the safety net of another. But to work we need childcare and it feels a bit like a viscous circle we don’t stand to benefit from.

No fortunately they dropped dead but I wouldn't have paid for anything

On a societal level, some women having children is actually pretty essential even if on an individual level it feels more "nice to have".

Either we have children at an average a little over one person or society will eventually stop working!

If you consider hierarchy of needs as being oxygen, water, food, shelter at the top, people concerned about this can't save for the "future" because they're worried about surviving now. Too many people are worried about food and shelter (including heating) to plan for the long term future they're not sure of reaching.

If I'm running away from a pack of lions, my primary aim is not being dinner, so I might well have to drop important items to distract it or get faster. I also want to be faster than n people where n is the number of lions... Instant survival comes before planning!

I didn’t say they “had it easy” but inflation and the rising costs of living are facts, backed up by statistics. Not a figment of my imagination.

The current cohort of young families are doing all the things you were - except the services which supported you are now buckling. We cannot rely on, nor have any expectation of our care home fees being paid.

So your post illustrates my point perfectly.

But we didn't benefit from the free childcare that is available now. So it's swings and roundabouts. And yes, we both still needed to work to pay our mortgage. And as my DD was disabled, we had to pay for 1:1 childcare at home for her. My wages were virtually wiped out by that cost even with DDs DLA.

I think many don't realise how expensive childcare is now (especially in the SE). When my now 12yo was young a day nursery cost £50ish. Now its £100+ in many places.

In different parts of my extended family I have...
A thirty something woman with two teens. She has never ever worked. Not before the kids. Not one day. She claims every possible penny. She has never contributed one penny to society except VAT on things she's bought with money she's claimed.
An elderly man who died last year. Had care for the last i think 5 years. Worked all his life. Care bill in the region of 4k a month.
We need a happy medium. We need to support parents while they cannot work or we need to support them so they can. But I also feel that we need to support the elderly who worked and paid for 40odd years. Currently if they have i think it's 23k in savings they pay for all their care. Why can this not be on a sliding scale? Why can everyone not be entitled to some level of care and top it up with their savings?

@PuttingDownRoots I used to pay 4.50£ an hour for a childminder 5 years ago. Now for my second the local childminders charge between £7 and £9 ph. And it’s a struggle to find a place!

There is no free childcare! That’s the point - there’s a contribution for an hourly rate, nurseries upped the hourly rate and found another way to charge. It’s not practical. It’s a token gesture.