To sack her?

[Jemmy78]

Changed name as friends might recognise this situation if they're on here.

More of a WWYD.

I run a charity shop/centre. We're all volunteers. I don't get paid. It's a lot of work, and there are a lot of us putting in many hours of work every week. We do an amazing job and make a lot of money for our cause.

We've been running for a number of years. Some volunteers have been there since the beginning, and some have joined recently.

Some of the "old crew" don't like the "new crew." It's all a bit ridiculous, and I try to keep things upbeat and positive. Unfortunately, I find it tends to be something women do to each other—I'm a woman, by the way. There has been some fighting and snide comments. Not a lot. But it happens.

There's one woman in particular who's known for being nasty. It's just her way. I don't know whether it's misplaced humour or if she's just a piece of work.

She missed a big meeting we had a few weeks ago. No biggie. It wasn't compulsory. When I saw her later in the week, I said I'd go through some of the main points. She said, "Why bother? Nothing ever bloody changes?"

I let that one go. I was miffed because it had been a very positive meeting, but I didn't want the aggro. But I was cross that she'd been so rude and dismissive. We'd talked about a lot of important things in the meeting - finance, budget, projects for 2024...

Last week, I was in another meeting. I had to go into the main room to get a pen because mine had run out. I asked her if I could borrow one from behind the till.

The next day, a customer, who was in the shop at the time, contacted me and said that the woman working was very discourteous and rude and that she really shouldn't be working in the shop. I asked what she'd said, and apparently, she'd said - about me as I was walking away but out of earshot - "Jesus. Just look at the bloody arse on that,"

I'm very overweight. It sounds like something she'd say. There's no reason for this customer to lie.

Under normal circumstances, she'd be "sacked" or asked to leave. But, she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad... and I know I'd feel guilty if I got rid of her. At the same time, my mum died last year, and if she was still here, she'd be telling me not to take any shit off this woman and that I should never allow anyone to speak about me like that. Well, not in a professional setting, at any rate.

WWYD?

If she has no filter that may be why she has no friends and family keep a distance. Maybe she needs a period of self reflection.

It was awful because she was truly so lovely. And she was only in her forties when she died. Her mother told me that oxfam completely broke her.

She definitely taught me a lesson of-

that i don't ever stay in a job that is abusing me.
It's not worth.your mental health . Or your life.

OP. Sack the person
I've been to a chairty/hopice shop near us a few times over the years and give them items we don't want and some still in their original packing. We went over one Sunday morning to see if they would accept cushin covers, ost of them were in their packing - two of them were talking behind the counter so after about 40/50 seconds (we were in a hurry) asked if they would accept items and wanted to tell them they were brand new as IMO get them a bit more money - the look I got. However, I would still gift items but there was no need for that

Also, I feel it's not fair on OP to run a charity shop and working all of these hours for nothing. Charities should pay at least the expenses of of all volunteers and the volunteers decide if to accept or opt out The heads of charities and their commanders get paid, so why not you and your staff?

I absolutelt agree with your last part. I think that charities (at the very top)can be very cruel to their staff.

They often over over work the staff, and don't pay them at all all, or pay them very little.

They don't seem to think of paid employees wellbeing, or the volunteers wellbeing much.

Yet of course, at the top of a lot of the big charities, the ones at the very top get paid huge salaries. They definitely need to be regulated more

I manage a team of volunteers to run a kids camp every year.

They all have to sign a volunteers agreement.
That includes:
a clear statement about what a volunteer is
committment to the hours and days of work
code of conduct
agreeing to certain training, non negotiable (eg safeguarding training)
agreeing to certain tasks.
accountability (who is the boss etc)

I would say that you need this as a matter of urgency.

Volunteering is great, but it works much better when clear ex[ectations are laid down on both sides.

With your lady, give her a volunteer agreement, point out any parts that you think she particularly needs to see, and tell her straight, that you want her to follow this, because it matters to you and to the charity/cause. If she can't do it, then one written warning and then out.

yeah volunteer CoC and behaviour standards, bit of training and also being clear what consequences of 3 raised issues is - ie being asked to leave.

Old and Lonely doesn't mean nice, not nice doesn't really deserve empathy in this situation. One bad egg can cause significant issues for the rest of the team making it unpleasant and they are volunteers they don't have to come. Whilst they are volunteers it doesn't give them the right to bad mouth people or clients with impunity

@OneMoreTime23 Your perspective is that of a highly experienced professional.

I also volunteer, and the paperwork is of the same flavour as that of my relatively progressive public sector job. I have no idea whether our behavioural code carries any weight, but it sets expectations and I think it is a good idea. Knowing how to do this properly directly from a solicitor (or being advised not to) could be invaluable to the OP - she doesn’t have your experience, and surely you can appreciate that the anonymous assurances of a stranger aren’t as confidence inspiring.

Also if this woman acts up when OP talks with her, it will be good for OP to know what authority she has.

You’re veering into worker territory there. That’s a tribunal case waiting to happen.

https://www.warnergoodman.co.uk/site/blog/news/when-will-a-volunteer-be-considered-a-worker#:~:text=For%20example%2C%20it%20would%20be,as%20they%20choose%2C%20without%20penalty.

https://www.ncvo.org.uk/help-and-guidance/involving-volunteers/volunteers-and-the-law/employment-status/tribunal-decisions/

no, we have had legal advice

There is a clear difference between a voluntary worker contract (which is work, and maybe that some of OPs people need this) and volunteers, which are still allowed, but where it is fine to outline your expectations and theirs.

There is nothign wrong with volunteers having a code of contact, or needing training.

Any place that I've volunteered in has had codes of conduct. It's the done thing.

Your description of her personal life makes me think she might be bitter and resentful. No excuse for her behaviour but sometimes it becomes habitual and the bitter person is barely aware of what they are doing, how it affects others. It’s a bit of a twisted way of getting attention they’re lacking.

I agree with @DatingDinosaur. Ask her what it is she likes about coming to the charity shop. Keep questions on the positives - her mind focused on the positives. She might say she does it to get out of the house, give something back.

Then say all the volunteers have similar reasons and want to enjoy the experience. Ask her if she is aware that her comments spoil it somewhat. She’s bound to ask for an example. Tell her what the customer said in a tone that suggests it’s a fact. That will make her less likely to deny it. If she does give other examples. Ask her if she can keep those sort of thoughts to herself. If she wants to stay at the shop she’s unlikely to argue. Say, If she can’t she’ll have to find something else that suits her better.

Then if she repeats sack her. But you’ll know you did all you could for someone whose personal unhappiness is spoiling something that could alleviate that unhappiness- cutting their nose off to spite their face.

I wonder if you are hesitant because it’s you she made the comment about, so you feel it’s within your gift, so to speak, to let it go.

But what if she’d made that comment about another volunteer, or customer, or member of staff - and had a customer complain about it? Presumably you’d feel that had to be dealt with.

Tough shit that she’s an old lady who lives alone, etc etc. Lonely old ladies don’t get a special pass to be offensive and obstructive.

I am sorry for the loss of your Mum. She sounds like a lovely person with her head screwed on.

Obviously you have only given a snapshot here but your headlines fall into categories that others have fallen fowl of. Hence me providing you verified links.

They’ve gone way beyond a code of conduct though.

But hey, there are others paying me for my advice and I can see you all (think you) know better. So I’ll say adieu.

Can you appoint a deputy, even a volunteer deputy, whose specific role is managing volunteers? If it's someone with HR experience, even better.

I think drawing up a code of conduct is fine and advisable, but not if it you feel that gives you permission to ignore the current issue.

A customer rang up to make a complaint about what was said in her presence. At a minimum you need to discuss that with the volunteer in question. It's much easier to distribute new guidelines generally but that's avoiding your job as manager. Ask the volunteer to sit down with you, tell her about the complaint and consider what to do after you've heard her response.

But, she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad...
This doesn't surprise me. But it also doesn't give her carte blanche to behave the way she's behaving.
As an ex manager, l'm pretty sure the behaviour you've experienced/heard about is only the tip of the iceberg.
It's creating a toxic environment. And your customers will sense that.

Tough shit that she’s an old lady who lives alone, etc etc. Lonely old ladies don’t get a special pass to be offensive and obstructive.
This. I'm in my mid sixties, l live alone, l have friends, but no one local to me, besides people l work with.
There's no way on this green earth l'd behave like that (or even think about it) at work. I work in retail, and it's totally unacceptable.

At the very least you should tell her a customer made a complaint about her then tell her exactly what the customer said.

Thank you, everyone. I spoke to a member of the committee today. She's going to draft a code of conduct. I'll get everyone to sign it, and I'll feel more reassured going forward. I'll also speak to this woman when we reopen the shop next week and see what she has to say. I've got a feeling she'll storm off. I'll let her stay stormed off. It's a very, very informal setting. That's probably why I never thought about this. We have certain things in place: emergency contacts, the volunteers are insured for public liability, first aid training... But I never thought about a code of conduct. We have the aims of the charity on the wall. Everyone gets a handbook and a copy of the founding act. We have the AGM and the minutes are sent out etc. I don't know why I never thought about it. We were all friends when it first started, and it has got bigger since then. I'll get something in place. There would be enough money to pay me, but not much after that, I imagine. It's a small, independent shop.

I'm confused - you said in your first post that you're all volunteers and you don't get paid. But I'm your latest post you say that there would be enough money to pay you. I'm still not clear whether, as a volunteer yourself, you have the power to stop the woman from continuing to volunteer if she decides she wants to?

The op said she is a volunteer but is manager of the shop and manages the other volunteers.

I think she was just commenting on whether they have any funds to hire paid staff. She is not currently paid.

Another vote for taking her aside for a word - not just about the latest cruel comment but all of it

It's entirely possible she'll walk and then your problem's solved, but if she stays and this carries on at least she'll have had fair warning before you finally ask her to leave, which might help a bit with the "feeling bad for her"?