To sack her?

[Jemmy78]

Changed name as friends might recognise this situation if they're on here.

More of a WWYD.

I run a charity shop/centre. We're all volunteers. I don't get paid. It's a lot of work, and there are a lot of us putting in many hours of work every week. We do an amazing job and make a lot of money for our cause.

We've been running for a number of years. Some volunteers have been there since the beginning, and some have joined recently.

Some of the "old crew" don't like the "new crew." It's all a bit ridiculous, and I try to keep things upbeat and positive. Unfortunately, I find it tends to be something women do to each other—I'm a woman, by the way. There has been some fighting and snide comments. Not a lot. But it happens.

There's one woman in particular who's known for being nasty. It's just her way. I don't know whether it's misplaced humour or if she's just a piece of work.

She missed a big meeting we had a few weeks ago. No biggie. It wasn't compulsory. When I saw her later in the week, I said I'd go through some of the main points. She said, "Why bother? Nothing ever bloody changes?"

I let that one go. I was miffed because it had been a very positive meeting, but I didn't want the aggro. But I was cross that she'd been so rude and dismissive. We'd talked about a lot of important things in the meeting - finance, budget, projects for 2024...

Last week, I was in another meeting. I had to go into the main room to get a pen because mine had run out. I asked her if I could borrow one from behind the till.

The next day, a customer, who was in the shop at the time, contacted me and said that the woman working was very discourteous and rude and that she really shouldn't be working in the shop. I asked what she'd said, and apparently, she'd said - about me as I was walking away but out of earshot - "Jesus. Just look at the bloody arse on that,"

I'm very overweight. It sounds like something she'd say. There's no reason for this customer to lie.

Under normal circumstances, she'd be "sacked" or asked to leave. But, she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad... and I know I'd feel guilty if I got rid of her. At the same time, my mum died last year, and if she was still here, she'd be telling me not to take any shit off this woman and that I should never allow anyone to speak about me like that. Well, not in a professional setting, at any rate.

WWYD?

Her behaviour is rude and offensive in front of customers. I would honestly tell her a customer has complained and it might be better if she volunteers elsewhere.
I’m sure she can find another charity shop.

Your organisation will have HR policies, you need to be briefed on those
Take internal advice

But, she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad

And? You aren't running a bloody charity for her, are you? It's twats like this who will ruin the organization from the inside if you allow it. She's fucking awful. Get rid of her.

I would have a meeting with her and say that her attitude is having an effect on the team and that a more positive attitude is required if she's to continue in the role. I would also tell her that there has been a customer complaint about her rude comment about you and that must not happen again. Hopefully she'll get the hump and leave which would deal with the problem!

Oh she needs to go. Make sure you’re following the correct company procedures from start to finish though. She sounds the sort to claim age discrimination if she’s let go rather than face the fact that it’s her own conduct that’s led her here. Cover yourself by following the correct formal process.
You can’t feel bad about this. She’s a bad apple and if she doesn’t get removed she’ll spread her negativity like a disease. You’ll lose good, motivated staff who can’t put up with her, or the good ones will feed off her negativity and become like her, and you’ll lose customers as a result. For every one of the customers who came and told you what she said, there are ten more who have had a bad experience and just never come back to the shop. As a charitable organisation she’s taking away from the cause, not just some big corporation’s profits, and that’s the way you need to think about it. She shapes up, or ships out.

This!

We're a small, independent charity. There isn't anyone higher up than me - other than the government and the legal side of it - so I don't have a code of conduct or HR process in place. We make money, and we use it for our little, local cause. We get the accounts checked. We have fire safety inspections and that sort of thing. That's it. I've relied on people behaving themselves so far, and the vast majority do. There's a quorum and a committee. We have an AGM and all that jazz. I've never had to ask anyone to leave. It's a group of women of a certain age selling second-hand stuff, making the shop look nice, and drinking tea. We all rub along quite well. It's just this one woman. And it always has been her. If I were to tell others what she'd said, nobody would be surprised. I'm 20 to 40 years younger than most of them, and I sometimes think this doesn't help. I'm not sure I'm that great a manager of people. I'm good at rallying the troops and coming up with fundraising ideas... and I'm good at doing the actual 'cause' bit of the charity... but I find it very hard to manage volunteers. It's not the same as in the business world. People "play up" a lot more than they would in a "real" job. It's hard. It's become more than doing the 'cause'. The building is now a social hub for about 40-odd volunteers. And they've all got their own ideas.
But even if she disagrees with my way of doing things (which I think was reorganising the books! - the size of my arse doesn't really have anything to do with it.

Jesus, what a nasty piece of work. You need to talk to her. Ideally she'll be so mortified she'll piss off of her own accord but if she doesn't then if she pulls any other crap then she should be out the door.

You said there's a legal side.

You should legal advice about what to do if a volunteer is behaving badly.

You should seek advice and draw up a code up a conduct and also disciplinary procedure for the volunteers.

asl it looks like you are the most senior person, you can ask advice from charity websites on how to do this. You could also contact and Ask other charities what they do.

There should be a code of conduct for volunteers. Volunteers can't do whatever they want. For example if a volunteer comes in and drinks in the shop and serves customers drunk, would you keep him as a volunteer?

The two people she usually volunteers with have English as a second language, so I don't think they really understand what she's like. But the customers do. And other volunteers if they cross her path at events. She's also always bought my kids birthday and Christmas presents. She really has got nothing else and I know I'd feel bad for her. I know it's her own fault for being such a bitch - and she really is a piece of work - but the idea of her (or anyone[ having nothing and nobody is kind of upsetting.

That should say

"You should get legal advice"

Then don't fire her. But have a talk with her about her behaviour. Say that she is representing the shop.

Yes, there's a centre in the next town that gives free legal advice for charities. I will contact them about a code of conduct and anything else I might be missing. That's a good idea. I need a bit of back up.

I really think you are leaving yourself open to trouble if you don't have
A hr person
A board of management
A code of conduct for volunteers
Discipliniary procedures for volunteers.

You should definitely have the last two in place.
You should have a written list of things that would result in instant dismissal such as drinking in the shop , stealing items etc

Yeah there are definitely great organisations our there to give you good advice.. you're not alone!

You can get idead from other charities on what to do. Even though they are volunteers they still have to meet basic standards and good conduct.

You could maybe say at the next meeting, "the charity have decided to put a code of conduct in place". And then go through it with them.

Good luck!

would this link be useful?
https://www.ncvo.org.uk/help-and-guidance/involving-volunteers/supporting-and-managing-volunteers/dismissing-a-volunteer/

oops, ignore me, I thought it was another Kate thread

I’d tell her what you’ve been told and that she needs to take some time off starting immediately, and to contact you when she can come back and make a positive contribution to the shop. I think that’s all that needs to be said, for now.

OP if you google "sample codes of conduct for charity volunteers".

There are some great samples online.

I used to work for several different charities. I was a paid employee. We also had volunteers.

We got all of the volunteers to sign a code of conduct. In it was their expected duties. And how the charity expected thwir behaviour to bw.

The charities I worked in were large charities, so they had a lot of these documents already in place.

As you are a small charity, you will need to create these docs yourself , but it won't be too hard, as there are great resources online to help you.

And you have the legal place next to you who can check the wording of things for you.

@Jemmy78

what would you do if the customer had said the woman had said that bout another member of staff?

whays more important to you? Her suffering the consequences of her behaviour or the customer experience/vibe of you wee charity shop?

Yeah, if she'd said it about someone else, and I'd heard it... it would be a different story. But it's not a different story, is it? I need to stop feeling sorry for her. If my kids had heard her and I'm pussyfooting around the issue, I'm not setting them a good example either. She's awful. I'll go the official route. We're closed for holidays at the moment, so it makes sense that this code of conduct could come in after the holidays. Fresh start. A bit more direction and authority from me. I'm such a wuss. I think the problem is that I'm more interested in the cause than the shop. And most volunteers are more interested in the shop.

I'd call the group together and make clear what your expectations are of the team. Both what you expect people to do, and how you want them to do it as a team.
Keep it simple, maybe 5 key words or phrases. Print it and pin it up.

You need to be very clear, consistent and equal with everybody including yourself (no rules for them, but exceptions for you). Pull out examples within the group of where things are great. Have the convo and get a temperature check if the room.

I'd then sit her down 121 and reiterate your expectations as per the team meeting. I'd highlight good examples you've seen, and areas that have been below.

I'd also calmly but directly make clear the consequences of anyone not meeting minimum expectations ie their services will simply no longer be required.

Make clear though that this is a reset, we start with a clean sheet from here.

Ask her for her thoughts, any feedback, have them conversation. You want to know you're both aligned and on the same page, you want to check there's no doubt or grey areas. If there's pushback or nonchalance, you'll need to be firm that you're the manager, and you set the tone as to what is and isn't acceptable. Remember that the culture of any group is determined by the worst behaviour the leader is willing to tolerate.

People need to know where the guardrails are, otherwise they set their own and everything gets bent out of shape, impacts everyone and it's a drama. Never forget that one rotten apple spoils the barrel. Most of my biggest leadership regrets have been around not addressing people issues quickly and decisively enough. When a spoiler in the group goes unchecked, it's the good people who normally leave you.

So first things first, you need to be the manager. So step up and manage it.

What happens next is really up to her.

I would say, I’m quite a lenient person, but I would sack her.

Theres no place for that low behaviour and to say it to a customer shows she has no boundaries.

She’s probably got away with being a nasty bitch all her life, because no one has ever dared to pull her up on it.

I find it very hard to manage volunteers. It's not the same as in the business world. People "play up" a lot more than they would in a "real" job.

I’m sure that’s true - but remember it works both ways. You don’t have to treat her like an employee either, with warnings and performance improvement measures. You can simply tell her you are unhappy with her behaviour and that you do not want her to continue representing the organisation.

The advice you have received about a volunteer code of conduct is very useful. But I wouldn’t waste time trying to rescue the situation with this woman. She doesn’t want things to improve; she thinks because she’s donating her time for free that she can do as she pleases. Well sometimes things are free because no one wants to pay for them. Tell her she’s no longer needed and then formalise behavioural expectations with the rest of the volunteers.

I’m all for giving people a chance to improve but she has a history of being toxic to the staff and the customers - that was an extraordinary thing to say about a colleague in front of a customer - so I’d just get rid of her. Check on the legals with CAB obviously but it’ll be a much better environment without her. IME anyway it is not normal for workplaces to be bitchy just because they are female.

As a matter of interest OP do you work? I only ask because you sound quite driven and engaged, but you are perhaps overthinking this and I wonder if you need some more stimulation in this part of your life.