To sack her?

[Jemmy78]

Changed name as friends might recognise this situation if they're on here.

More of a WWYD.

I run a charity shop/centre. We're all volunteers. I don't get paid. It's a lot of work, and there are a lot of us putting in many hours of work every week. We do an amazing job and make a lot of money for our cause.

We've been running for a number of years. Some volunteers have been there since the beginning, and some have joined recently.

Some of the "old crew" don't like the "new crew." It's all a bit ridiculous, and I try to keep things upbeat and positive. Unfortunately, I find it tends to be something women do to each other—I'm a woman, by the way. There has been some fighting and snide comments. Not a lot. But it happens.

There's one woman in particular who's known for being nasty. It's just her way. I don't know whether it's misplaced humour or if she's just a piece of work.

She missed a big meeting we had a few weeks ago. No biggie. It wasn't compulsory. When I saw her later in the week, I said I'd go through some of the main points. She said, "Why bother? Nothing ever bloody changes?"

I let that one go. I was miffed because it had been a very positive meeting, but I didn't want the aggro. But I was cross that she'd been so rude and dismissive. We'd talked about a lot of important things in the meeting - finance, budget, projects for 2024...

Last week, I was in another meeting. I had to go into the main room to get a pen because mine had run out. I asked her if I could borrow one from behind the till.

The next day, a customer, who was in the shop at the time, contacted me and said that the woman working was very discourteous and rude and that she really shouldn't be working in the shop. I asked what she'd said, and apparently, she'd said - about me as I was walking away but out of earshot - "Jesus. Just look at the bloody arse on that,"

I'm very overweight. It sounds like something she'd say. There's no reason for this customer to lie.

Under normal circumstances, she'd be "sacked" or asked to leave. But, she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad... and I know I'd feel guilty if I got rid of her. At the same time, my mum died last year, and if she was still here, she'd be telling me not to take any shit off this woman and that I should never allow anyone to speak about me like that. Well, not in a professional setting, at any rate.

WWYD?

It clearly is a sackable offence.

Can you pass the shop management onto someone else who might enjoy it more, and you can support the charity in other ways - running a team of 40 volunteers is a huge undertaking, and even without this awful woman, it sounds like you really don't want to do it anymore.

You absolutely have to address the complaint with her directly.

What you do after that depends on how you want to handle it, but I’d at minimum take her off the schedule for a period of time and tell her you are giving her a break.

Alison Green at askamanager.com gives excellent advice, so worth emailing this question there also. She does address non-profit and volunteer issues regularly.

I’ve read all the responses and I think this is the best, short, sweet, polite and perfectly clear. She might take umbrage at being criticised and leave anyway.

@Jemmy78 I think you sound amazing btw, an amazing boss, with a very kind heart. I work with volunteers and it’s so often very tricky.

I'd have a one to one with her. State your grievances and explain it's not acceptable and whilst you appreciate her support she will be asked to leave if it continues or if there are further complaints.

Her behaviour represents your charity, you don't want people to stop attending because of this.

If I heard a member of staff being rude like that in a shop, it would put me off going to the shop. At the end of the day, the purpose of your shop isn’t to provide an activity for volunteers. It’s to provide money for your charity. And if the behaviour of a staff member is reducing the amount of money made, then surely action has to be taken.

Can she be moved to back-room duties, not customer facing?

I said yabu but only because I think it's a warning rather than an immediate sacking.

As volunteers are not employees they don’t have an employment contract so you can’t sack her or follow any formal disciplinary procedures however you can ask her to leave at any time especially if she doesn’t meet the values or follow the rules of your organisation or respect you as her Manager
Regardless of the personal nature of her actions ,a customer has made a complaint about this person , as manager you need to deal with it
Start by asking if she is happy / enjoys her work , raise your concerns ( tell her what the customer said ) , talk about her concerns and ask if she has suggestions for addressing them
At the end of the meeting , if she doesn’t seem committed to changing in order to meet the rules / values then you need to ask her to leave . If she agrees to improve , then arrange a meeting for another 2 weeks to review . Just because she’s a volunteer doesn’t mean she can behave as she wishes . She’ll undermine you and drive your other volunteers and customers away !

Of course you need to get rid of her.

She is putting off the other volunteers and customers are complaining.

I really don't get the people who suggest any other outcome.

I assume when volunteers are recruited they have to agree to a code of conduct that includes not bringing the store into disrepute and being able to work as a team. She is unable to do that so she has to go.

so I don't have a code of conduct or HR process in place

I ran a tiny training company, just me and my business partner and a few hired trainers and we had policies in place before we let one person set foot on the premises.

You need these things and you need them now.

I'd say forget mentioning the arse comment. She will deny it straight out, say it was misheard, it was about someone else..
Just say a customer made a complaint about her using rude language/ manner so she will need to do some top training on customer, colleague relations and discrimination etc. What is the charity's policy?
She must have signed a document saying she will behave in a professional manner at all times in order for her to work there? If so she could be in breach of contract? (If there is one as a volunteer?)

I think you need to warn her about these behaviours and give her a chance to change before you sack her. Chances are she won’t change but with any luck she might leave of her own accord!

"She has no friends and her kids live abroad."

I wonder why 🤔

You're overthinking this.

She's plain Nasty. She'll spread misery like a fart under a duvet.

Tell her she is no longer wanted because her attitude and behaviour is detrimental to the shop.

Yeah. People who have nobody else in their lives have usually driven them all away.

...she's an old woman, lives on her own, no friends, has nothing except this charity work, her kids all live abroad...

I read somewhere "Sometimes it behoves us to recognise that the darkness that surrounds us is of our own making". A lot of people don't realise that their attitude is what is making life uncomfortable for themselves.

There's a reason this woman is in these circumstances. It's not your job to replace all the people she's driven away. She sounds a very unpleasant person who is damaging the good atmosphere the rest of the volunteers create. I can't imagine making poisonous remarks like that in front of a customer, it's both nasty and unprofessional, both of which reflect badly on the business.

I would ask her to leave/tell her she wasn't needed any more. I wouldn't feel guilty either. (And you know your mum would have your back too, she's not wrong! Don't take the shit lying down! )

You need to be professional about it and prioritise what is import to you. The charity its customers and beneficiaries could suffer due to her attitude.

Have a meeting with her. Layout out the facts without emotion - what she said, the impact on the customer, the impact on the team (you), and state it is behaviour that will not be tolerated, ask her if she has anything she wishes to say and take note of her responses (don't debate them), give her a written warning and lay out what will happen if there are any further complaints or similar behaviour.

Hopefully it will be enough of a slap on the wrist to make her think.

You can’t sack a volunteer, but you can absolutely end their volunteering opportunity. (Was HR Director for a very large national charity until recently.)

What you walk by you accept. Don’t accept any more of this.

This is it in a nutshell. By volunteering, she is supposed to be there for the charity; the charity isn’t there for her. If she wants a hobby, she can join a book club or a knitting circle, or play bridge. The rules may be unwritten here, but she’s clearly broken them, and in the absence of any hierarchy, OP can and should take action to get rid of her.

I think you need to take her personal situation out of the equation.
What she may or may not have outside of this particular role is not your concern in order to get this issue resolved.

Keep her age and situation out of the conversation and keep it as factual as possible, thanking her for what she has done up to now but you need to have a word with her about what she said recently.

Perhaps this is the perfect time to do a rejig of who does what in the team? That way it could be seen as a general rejig of the team and she isn't the only one being affected by what is going on.

Do you have any roles that are not customer facing that she might be able to do? If you do, I'd have a chat with her and tell her that due to her behaviour and her personal comments that a customer raised in complaint to you about, she is being moved to a non-customer facing role.

If she doesn't want that unfortunately, you no longer have a role that she can fulfil and she might be better off finding volunteer work with another charity or somewhere else but you cannot use her any more.

That would be my advice.

I've never heard that expression before and it's absolutely brilliant!
Spreading misery like a fart under a duvet!!! 😂

You can’t apply a formal disciplinary process to an informal environment. “Give her a written warning” - for what? A breach of policy? There IS no policy. We can argue about whether OP and others involved in the charity should have implemented a code of conduct, but for now, OP can only deal with things as they are, not how they should have been.

All applying a formal process here can do is convince this woman she has the same rights as an employee - meaning she’ll continue to be a nuisance. She doesn’t have those rights. I personally would get rid of her now, but if OP doesn’t want to, she needs to talk to her in very firm terms about how she will not put up with it and that she won’t get another chance (no talks of official warnings or similar).

I’d then take an immediate opportunity to let all volunteers know that, due to recent issues, you are instituting a code of conduct, and that anyone not willing to abide by it is no longer welcome as a volunteer. They will all know it’s her and will hopefully realise you won’t put up with it any longer.

I agree with this. It could be that for a first offence of this nature a warning is required, and you would get in trouble for sacking her.

Do you have the contact details of the woman who made the complaint? Otherwise it is your word against the volunteer’s and she sounds possibly like someone who would make trouble for you.

To be clear, I think her comment is completely unacceptable and it might be time for her to go. But it doesn’t always work that way.

Sorry, OP. I have just seen thatvyou have no HR or code of conduct. So yes, taking legal advice for the reasons I mentioned is a great idea.

I think you need a code of conduct, also.