People would be happy to pay more tax if it went directly to the NHS

[Blackcats7]

I think people would be happy to pay more tax if it was guaranteed to go to the NHS.

@izimbra

"Conservatives are just a disaster when it comes to public health and that creates major problems for the NHS."

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I don't disagree but with taxes at a 70 year high and debt at record levels I just don't see where Labour can get the money from to do anything different.

It needs good management. It's already getting £181.7 billion per year. More money would be just wasted.

No, the solution to the water leaking out of holes in your bucket isn't to add more water, it's to fix the bucket. The NHS is a money pit of waste and financial negligence.

@HeraSyndulla
Birmingham has been refusing to admit it has a funding gap for a good few years and now it's in trouble. Its biggest obligation is the historic equal pay claims. I think they have to seek some sort of compromise agreement on that front.

Another expense councils have acquired is provision for SEN. The standards have been set by central government and councils cannot afford to fund them. Again, the councils and the council tax payers cannot do this alone; the solution is either more money or fewer services. The better off don't want to pay more tax, and those who want services don't want fewer of them. Central government has to bite the bullet and decide who to anger.

@Biker47 ,

If you need the water in the bucket to extinguish a fire, you have to keep topping it up even when you are repairing it.

Nonsense.

There are a limited number of GPs, doctors, nurses and technicians. Let's assume for a moment that half of them decide that they will only work privately. Far from freeing up resources for the NHS, it means there are fewer GPs, doctors, nurses and technicians available for the NHS.

This has already happened with NHS Dentistry - in many areas of the country, it is impossible to find an NHS dentist as they have all gone private. The result is that people who have paid their taxes are getting little or no service, and those choosing to pay for private dentistry are effectively paying twice (and then trying to argue that they should have tax relief, resulting in even less money being available for the NHS).

I agree that private medical insurance should be tax-deductible. Someone suggested elsewhere that if it only applied to primary care (GP) but not secondary (hospital), it would relieve some of the burden on the NHS.

Recently, while we were away on a UK holiday (with several days to go) I became concerned that I had gout in my big toe so when I passed a private doctor's office I nipped in and asked if there would be a doctor who could see me at short notice. Went back at 2:00, straight into the consulting room. Toe examined (fortunately not gout) but it meant the rest of the week away (including a rugby international) wasn't ruined.

@Havanananana , this was two doctors job sharing within the NHS, adding their own extra hours just by taking an office with a receptionist. I knew I wasn't seriously ill, but I didn't want to compromise an expensive week away by being unable to carry out the planned (and paid for) events.

I should point out that I am a tax-paying pensioner, in otherwise good health.

@Papyrophile You missed out the bit about how much you paid.

Which then leads to the question - how does someone pay if they can't afford it, or do they just suffer instead?

Someone upthread tried to answer the "What if you don't have £45 for a GP appointment?" question with "Well just put it on the Credit Card." FFS - if you don't have £45 for something as vital as healthcare, then you probably don't have a CC, and even if you did, that's still £45 that you now owe and that has to be paid for (with 22.5% APR interest).

I wouldn’t - it’s never been there for me when I’ve needed it and most times I’ve ended up paying for it myself.
E.g

1. GP receptionist refusing me a f2f appt when I had a physical injury and not just a call where they can’t examine me
2. GP and then minor injuries not being interested in my severely infected ingrowing toenail and not treating me. Had to pay huge amounts to get it sorted and it took months of antibiotics to shift the infection
3. I’ve had bleeding between periods for years - took months and months to see a gynaecologist who couldn’t have cared less and didn’t get to the bottom of it

I also think it’s so outdated - notes should be typed up during the appt and emailed across straight away. Not hand written, then sit around for a few weeks before it’s typed up and posted.

I’d rather put the money towards private healthcare that’s actually there when I need it.

I also think it’s so outdated - notes should be typed up during the appt and emailed across straight away. Not hand written, then sit around for a few weeks before it’s typed up and posted

I do wonder where some people live in the UK.

NHS and GP surgeries have had been electronic note taking and record for many years.

I ve been to 100s of surgeries and dozens of smaller hospitals as part of my work role and they had wifi, network connections and decent IT.

The only thing written up was the dr's signature on prescriptions.... my own very recent appt, needed a prescription, by the time i walked out the surgery room, the pharmacist had the 3 medications ready for me.

Whats lacking, is linking it all up to other GPs and Hospitals, especially inter trust.

Aside, anyone know why we have so many Trusts??? Devon has 4 or 5.

@Flowersandforests I wouldn’t - it’s never been there for me when I’ve needed it and most times I’ve ended up paying for it myself.

Have you never stopped to ask yourself why it wasn't there when you needed it?

Of course it would be ideal if it were possible to just walk in to a GP surgery and see a doctor without waiting more than 20 minutes. If GP surgeries were open at times in the early morning and late evening when people could actually get to them. If the waiting time to see a Consultant could be measured in days and not months. If minor surgery could be undertaken within a 2-3 weeks of seeing the Consultant and there were virtually no hospital waiting lists. Or if an ambulance would arrive within 10 minutes of being called rather than 10 hours. Utopia eh?

Guess what - this is the norm in some EU countries. Some countries have up to twice as many doctors per capita than the UK has. Many more hospital beds per capita, more ITU beds, more nurses, newer equipment, and newer hospitals than the UK has. And yet the taxpayers pay little more than the British taxpayer pays, but receive a level of service, free at the point of use, that is far superior to that offered by the NHS.

Now ask yourself why this is? Is it because of something different about the nurses, doctors and other healthcare professionals? Is there a lack of funding per capita - Germany invests 30% more per person per year than the UK does? Are NHS staff trying to do the best with outdated buildings, equipment and IT, and outdated working practices? Is there too much government interference, particularly from people with no life experience outside of "politics" or "finance" and who think that the Free Market will solve every and any problem? Is it because the general population has demanded this level of service but at the same time is intelligent enough to realise that you don't get Cordon Bleu service for Burger King money.

Throwing money at the NHS is clearly not the answer per se. Without addressing the root causes of the problems facing the service, and admitting that change is needed, then things will not improve. Unfortunately, directing people to private medical care and taking staff from an already understaffed service into the private sector will only widen the gap between what is available to those who can afford to pay, and what those who cannot are left with. Politicians need to be reminded sometimes that their sworn remit is to do what's best for all of the population - not just those who vote for their party, those who donate large sums to their election funds or those who promise them juicy "consultancy" roles.

@Havanananana It cost £55 for 15 minutes. If I am remembering correctly, I think I read here, the cost of a GP appointment in Ireland is about 50 euros.

When discussing the NHS, it's useful to see how different parties treat it.

This graph shows waiting times comparing when the Tories and Labour were in power. It's from the FT so not exactly a left wing mouthpiece.

It's useful to note that Labour are in charge of the Welsh NHS and we have far worse waiting times than the Tories have brought.

What good are tax cuts when public services are already wrecked?

It's not just the health service, it's everything.

And I am a life long Labour voter, I'll make no excuse for the Tories. However, if the party that care about the NHS won't or can't improve it, what hope do we have rather than tabling a very pragmatic discussion on how to help?

I’d me more then Happy for everyone and I mean everyone to pay a nominal amount. £5 to see a gp and such. £50 to skip to a consultant without referral and such.

We also need to work out what we are for..: are we here to keep 89 year old Doris alive at all costs? Are we here to create new life artificially? Are we here to treat major sporting accidents fully on the nhs rather than expecting some kind of co pay? I think there is a middle ground.

Ok maybe children free because they cannot change the families they are born into.

I want midwifes and gps and surgeons to be able to train for free with no debt, ok on a condition of they work for the nhs for X years in exchange.

I want staff to have lunch breaks and be able to say work only school hours, to only work days, to only work nights. So staff have the hours they want and need. It’s good for moral.

But I don’t want to automatically pay more money for a thing that’s making staff unhappy, that many departments are marked as not good look at maternity care.

I want better help before we are too fat or whatever. But I don’t want to sit in a&e for 7hours for an X-ray or have my dh be bed blocking because a doctor cannot be found to sign of on paperwork despite never seeing him but yet that’s who needs to sign him off.

The Barnett formula decides how much Wales and NI get to pay for their NHS services. It only takes into account population sizes. As Wales has significantly higher numbers of older people then this formula isn't particularly helpful as older people need more care.

Interesting article on it here:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/nhs-wales-badly-run-by-labour-or-underfunded-by-westminster

I'm astonished by the negative vote so far. Throughout the "greedy" 1980s and the 1990s, British polls consistently showed people happy to pay more tax if it went to services like health and education

Perhaps people have had their eyes opened to the waste, and have now moved to the very reasonable position that there's simply no point in handing over yet more money without thorough reform

I posted earlier in the thread. Some of the doctor crisis is of their own making. When she finishes her foundation years Junior doctor DD will only have a one in four chance of getting core training, even to be a GP. At the same time more expensive physicians associates are taking over what were locum jobs. So after 8 years of training and working her choice will probably be to either go to Australia or find another profession and leave medicine. It is very sad.

People talk about doctor shortages but why can't the NHS employ and develop English doctors rather than recruit doctors from elsewhere, often places which really need their doctors. Or why wont they let junior doctors work as physician associates. They are far better qualified.

In terms of paying more, yes, but by the same notion paying less means things get even worse.

I can't remember the details but I'm sure a poster on a similar thread talked about a healthy level of competition between German healthcare facility providers. They said it encouraged the crap ones to improve the standard of care otherwise patients would vote with their feet and go elsewhere.

Yes I would pay more tax for the NHS.
Yes the NHS 'waste' money
Yes the technology is clunky and poor
Yes patients need to take more responsibility
And in some circumstances be held accountable for wasting and missing appointments.

Hell people move abroad and don't even bother informing their GP to close down their care.

I agree the FT's far from a left wing mouthpiece, @randomchap, but there's a rather more nuanced report linked below

It explains that, as with surveys which can be made to prove anything, much depends on how numbers are counted

https://fullfact.org/health/starmer-conference-waiting-lists-times/