What to do about new estate we’ve moved to?

[Applepastry]

We’ve recently moved to a new build estate. It’s directly next door to a council estate (no issues with this as my mum was brought up on one and lots of my friends were and are from council estates. Everyone seems friendly enough.
My main concern is that all the kids play out in the street, I totally understand with the ones who are 7 or 8 +
However there are 4 and 5 year olds playing out alone, without any adult supervision at all. My DS is 5 and he doesn’t have older siblings. These children will often come and knock for him and he asks to play out with them when he sees them all out on the street. I have been going out with him, but he asks why I have to go, when none of the other parents do.
They all wander up towards the park which is around a corner and you can’t see it from the estate. When I’ve been up there, it extends quite far and joins on a stream and woodland. I’m not comfortable with my 5 year old going up there out of my sight.
Other parents don’t seem bothered and just say “Oh I wonder where G is…he must be at the park”

I’m not a helicopter parent, but AIBU about 4 and 5 year olds (one was 3) being out in the streets by themselves? Some wandering in and out of other houses and into the road?

I just don’t know what to do about my DS as he’s keen to be accepted in this new area and wants to play out with them. He’ll definitely stand out with me or his dad hanging around.

Too little, it's hard but perhaps do some gardening or something to look busy out front with them rather than just watching constantly or get some fun things for your back garden and invite 1 or 2 in if their patents agree.

I hate to say it, but I would be nipping these friendships in the bud. I wouldn't let your child play with these kids full stop, and I would try to avoid him going to the same school as them.
And before anyone asks, it is not because of the council estate thing.
I was one of those council estate free range kids from the 70's and 80's, and it was all normal, until I saw a group of the local younger kids playing chicken on a road and watched one of them be run over and killed right on front of me. I was 10 at the time and meant to be one of the responsible ones. He was 6 and I couldn't get there in time to stop him.
I still have to fight to stop myself from blaming myself now, and I hate myself for even feeling anything because it wasn't my family who died, so I don't have the right to any feelings other than self hatred, and that feeling is my penance so I never discuss it with anyone.
I feel dirty even mentioning my own emotions with regard to this, and I only do it because it may prevent someone else going through it.

fliptopbin I’m so so sorry you have had to carry this with you throughout your life. It wasn’t your fault. Any responsibility lies with the parents.
It’s awful you are living with this guilt to this day. I know what you mean in your last paragraph as I feel similarly about something entirely different.
This is trauma. If you ever get a chance, through work maybe?, counselling might help to process what happened and teach methods to change how you think about it.

A similar incident happened on my street. A young girl was supposed to be minding three or four younger siblings. One of them, he was only two or three, ran onto the road and got knocked down and killed by a truck. The driver couldn’t have stopped. He ended up giving up his job. The sister has lived with it since, she became so withdrawn and never made friends. She should never have been the person supposed to be looking after them. She was just a young child herself.

@fliptopbin omg you shouldn't have to carry this guilt with you! You were a young child, you should never ever have been put in that position! It was 100% not your fault! You don't deserve to have "penance" either - that's not fair! 10 is no age!

Please speak to your GP and explain how you feel. You don't deserve to have to carry this burden with you. GP could refer you for counselling, and you wouldn't have to pay, though you might have a bit of a wait. I really truly hope you can make peace with yourself. That little one's death was totally not on you x

I agree- my son is 8 and I still don’t like him playing out. But 5 is deffo too young to be out of sight! Still not sure what’s relevant about you buying a ‘new build’ and moving next to a ‘council estate’. Has no relevance to your question?

I remember being in your situation - dd was 4 or 5 and desperately wanted to play out with a group of girls all older than her but some only as big heightwise - they were all playing outside a neighbours house but on our cul de sac. Heartbreaking for some mums seeing their child unhappy where others don't bat an eyelid or care. So i took her over and asked if dd could play & they all just looked at me, one spoke up eventually & said she could play. I went inside and sat by the window watching, within 10 minutes they'd all run off the street & she was on her own again. She'd been told that no way was she to leave the cul de sac, she came home after they'd all gone. No matter what you do it will hurt you somehow but hopefully only for a short time and then there'll be another challenge - it's an emotional rollercoaster that's only just starting. My best advice is listen to your gut feelings - always better to be safe than sorry. We worked round it by inviting a couple of her friends round - that way she was safe and happy and I was within earshot xx

No, I definitely would not be ok with this, and I would not be encouraging friendships with children of families who have questionable parenting and inadequate supervision. You don't have to judge, but you can make your own decision about parenting styles and levels of supervision that suit you and your family. I don't know what you can do about it now. You live there, you're going to be upsetting someone by saying no, but a lot of parenting is like that. You need to put your child's safety and well-being first. I work with a lot of very independent, overly mature, and street wise children who are actually very vulnerable. I'm very pleased my own children of the same age are not streetwise, and wouldn't last 5 minutes. They don't have a clue about the things these children do, and long may it continue.

They never sight kids play areas so you can see them... maybe if a neighbours house overlooks the park you can all cub together for cctv so you can collectively check we're your kids are...

In my day (gen x) this is exactly what we did but without the being able to go into the house once we were out.... it was a great childhood 😁

But now with so many people (principally men) wanting to now try child sex - I think child sex is being normalised😱- you can't be too careful.

I moved in an area like this when my daughter was 6
I was the only parent outside, and I used to look after a little 3 year old girl who lived next door 🤣
I only ever occasionally said hi to her mum who didn't seem to care
A year later,
My daughter was fully independent and I used to watch her out of the window
Theae kids do actually have rules,
For example
My daughter knew she she shouldn't cross the road except to go to the little park, it was a cul de sac
And she wasn't alllowed to leave the area
If a child did go a bit far, you always had other kids coming and saying your child went there etc
Kids really become a family
Much better if they have siblings tho
My daughter didn't so I was always watching out the window

Honestly men haven't changed,there's just more awareness and discussion now. It was always thus though.

No, it's not.

There is no evidence that children are more likely to be either abducted or raped than they were when you were a child.

And the areas of risk that have increased are all on the internet, which kids access in part because they're not allowed out to play.

4 year old down the park alone? I wouldn't. But don't scaremonger.

@fliptopbin
I’m so sorry, it wasn’t your fault and you shouldn’t have been put in that position.
I don’t think ‘men’ are the issue here. Flashing and csa are a risk of children playing unsupervised, but RTA, bullying, water etc. are bigger. Under 10 year olds just don’t have the mental and emotional capacity to judge risks.

I was born early 50’s, went to the corner shop 300yds away regularly by myself when 5 years old, walked across fields to primary school within a few weeks of starting and was cycling to another village with my younger siblings before I was 8. I cringe at the thought now.

Absolutely not - council estate or not that’s just bad parenting. I grew up on a council estate and we were not allowed to go past the lamppost 6 doors up (friends on either side of us similar age)…and that was 25 years ago!

id much rather be the house that has 10 random kids in my back garden than allow this

Boundaries. You make it clear where he can go. If he wants to of beyond those boundaries, he needs to come and ask permission and you'll accompany him. First time he breaks the agreed boundary rules, not more playing out alone.

I grew up in the 70s on a new build estate surrounded by fields and woods, and main roads. Our parents were the strictest and the other kids knew we could only play on our street in view of our house ie if mum stepped outside she could see us. When the other children wanted to go to the 'back field' or the woods, we knew we couldn't and didn't. Wasn't a big deal

Could you maybe get him one of those watches that you can put a sim card in and see where he is and call him? That's what we did when my 6 year old started playing outside with friends. I also aleays helped him cross the road and told him where he was allowed to play and where he wasn't allowed to go anymore. Or maybe some compromise where you sit in the park with a book further from where he is but still within eyesight?

I'm wondering why you're here on Mumsnet when you don't have children and therefore don't really know what that entails. To say that there is no more risk of danger to children than to your cat is just ludicrous.

No way far too young to be out unsupervised especially with all the stories in the news. Bad parenting and you do what you think is best for you and your family. I always went out with my son when little and brought the kids drinks and snacks and other parents really did not give a damn.

This is a primarily female forum, but it's not compulsory to be a mother.

I did not say there is no more risk of danger to children than to my cat.

You said: "There is no way on this earth that I could allow my children if they are that young to be out playing alone and unsupervised. It’s beyond dangerous and unthinkable."

I replied: "Statistically, the overall risk isn't 'beyond dangerous' but closer to 'rather unlikely any harm will result but still possible', and it's fine to go with best to be on the safe side."

I was simply trying to point out that the risk wasn't as extreme as you suggested - if it were, there would be multiple cases of children dying when playing outside unsupervised every week. And I added that it's fine to go with erring on the cautious side. I'm not sure why this has angered you so much.

Obesity will kill a lot more children than playing out> Harm coming to children playing outside is vanishingly rare.

Literally more kids will die of diseases related to a sedentary lifestyle.

I couldn't care less about any stats, obesity, your cat, or anything else.

My children are adults but I would never have risked their safety when they were little.

I'm not even thinking of dramatic 'stranger danger' or anything like that. To me, the risk of a young child being hit by a car would be my first concern.

Not a chance. I would be wary even at 10, let alone 5. Shocking (but I guess not surprising) people let 5yrs old kids out without adult supervision

Yes, I agree.

Ideally this would have been something you would have noticed when visiting the area. But it's easy to miss, especially if you were visiting after work or in the winter.

For a while I was bringing up children up in an area where they were able to roam quite freely but it was relatively safe, especially from traffic, with cul-de-sacs and pathways and fields. It was great, so much exercise and fresh air and learning to be responsible.

BUT there were age-appropriate rules about the dark, how often to report back home, how far they could go, with whom, and different for different ages. 5 year olds were only allowed outside where they could be seen from the house windows, or a little bit further with a group of children including a (much) older sibling or neighbour child who we knew very well. And we had to spend a lot of time on road safety and personal safety and not doing something because another child did (and going looking for them and applying the logical consequences, such as being grounded or further limited). Boundaries were set firm, so that transgressions would be unlikely to put the child in danger.

I'd just tell your child firmly that the age that he is allowed to play out is AGE, over and again until he understands without variation, and then repeat ad nauseum to the others something like "thank you for knocking, little Johnny is allow to play outside with you when he's AGE, but you are very welcome to come and play here inside or in our garden on DAY". Just every time. And make sure for his sake that when you do have them round, it's fun and you provide nice drinks and snacks so that they want to come back, then he'll slot in fine as he gets older and freer.

Or, move to somewhere where that is not the culture.

I totally take the point about v young children - but on the whole we have lost a massive massive benefit to children in the loss of wider street play as the norm.

I could reel off statistics about childhood inactivity. Only 49 per cent of children are active for 2 hours a day - this is tragic. Children's bodies are deisgned - by evolution! - to move and play all day long.

Organised sport / clubs can't replace the hours and hours of free play children will engage in when given the time space and permission to do so

Is it any wonder we see rocketing levels of social anxiety as well among young people when they literally have lost vast parts of the socialisation element of childhood - playing/ interacting with children of all ages (not just their own) - away from the watchful gaze of adults.