To have told my niece she won’t make it into Oxford uni?

[Awfulaunt]

Hi all,
first off sorry if there’s typos I’m typing this on my phone.
for context, I’ve been a private tutor for years, mainly English and History. Over the years I’ve helped with lots of UCAS and applications including a few oxbridge ones. My niece is at the age where she’s thinking about uni and her parents asked me to tutor her for English and History, I agreed. She is bright, gets Bs and the occasional A or C. She asked me if I think she should apply to Oxford and I said “No not for your undergrad. Maybe if you work really really hard at uni and do extracurriculars and things while you’re there and come out with a first you could try for your masters if you want to do one, but it’s not really an option at this moment in time.” All seemed fine, we carried on and she seemed okay. Fast forward to now and I just had SIL on the phone shouting at me that I crushed her dreams and that she was going to apply and get in and show me (etc). I said I’d love it if she did, I’d be absolutely thrilled if she got in to spite me.
I don’t think I was harsh when I told her, I don’t think it was cruel. I think it’s kind of my job to tell her. I didn’t rule it out in the future because I feel like once she’s at uni she will flourish academically because she will have more freedom etc and I’ve told her this many times. I feel horrible that I’ve upset her but I genuinely think it was the right thing to do.
I sent her a message saying I am sorry if I came off harsh or anything I just want what is best for her. Also spoke to DB who said SIL was just angry because niece was upset and that he thinks I did the right thing. Bit miffed that he let her speak to me like that, but also when she goes off best thing to do is stay out the crossfire.
Am I in the wrong and just blind to it?

Are you suggesting she should be encouraged to wait until after she has done her A Levels to apply? Because her predicted grades at the moment won't get her far.

I think you have to be really committed to the Oxford/Cambridge way of life rather than just seeing how you perform on the day.
I would add to this that I think the child themselves needs to be really committed rather than expecting their aunt to research the best unis for them.

It’s the family support too. A state school kid with very supportive parents might do well. I was the first in my family to go to university (excluding my dad, who I never met). So although at 18 I could deconstruct Shakespeare and discuss critical theory, I had no idea how to get a job in the city or the ‘soft’ social skills I needed. I didn’t have the confidence either.

Sorry OP - I’ve gone on a tangent. But your niece would be marked out as an Oxbridge candidate by her school or college by now. And if she was good enough, she’d have the drive and determination. You weren’t wrong. But it’s not an easy place - even if you’re academically good enough.

I have brought up a very feisty state school daughter who’s on all grade 9s at GCSE and sees no obstacles. But she has the home support I didn’t have. It’s not an easy thing to do.

There are so many fantastic universities out there! I guess I could've applied to Oxbridge, but there so many things against it... extra cost, entrance exams, living with people who had a silver spoon, the hobbies and lifestyle so many would have like horseriding, etc, I would have felt out of place. Not fair of your SIL to push for sth she knows nothing about in the real world. Xx

If everyone on this thread who claims to know what oxbridge do and don’t want from applicants is correct, it’s a wonder they have any students at all.

They don’t care about gcse/a level grades, they don’t care what type of school you went to, they don’t care what your interests are and they don’t care what extra curricular activities you do…

They must be choosing students based on hair colour or hight I suppose.

and @BusyMummy001

I clearly said reasonableness was not the question- OP was out of line.

The admission systems and criteria for undergraduate and post graduate courses are quite different.

There has been some discussion about whether you can get in with a 6 in one GCSE subject, and many people have said that even with 3 As and 10 9s you aren’t guaranteed a place, but that doesn’t mean they don’t care about grades.

Because the op didn’t want and isn’t happy with having upset her family- she didn’t post saying “is my niece likely to get a place?”, she asked whether she did the right thing in saying what she did-

Considering her family are now upset, and she is upset at having caused that, then clearly it wasn’t the best thing to say.

I know ‘loads’ of people that went to Oxbridge and still call it that. In fact even DD’s grammar school, well known for getting multiple students into both Oxford and Cambridge every year call the group of students applying there Oxbridge applicants. Why do you have such an issue with this?

About 3 posts up is a post about how gcse and a levels aren’t really valued by admissions because they are formulaic etc.

I think the A level results are fairly important. I got a C in GCSE Maths, a B in Science and 3As and 3 A*s back in 1996. Then 3 A grade A levels and a distinction S level. I was very good at my subject. Oxford uses contextual data too, when making offers. Now, I do think mostly 8s and 9s at GCSE matter - but it depends on the course, the contextual factors and the subject. The university themselves would be happy to answer these questions for a definitive answer.

One of my A Level tutors said I wasn’t cut out for Oxford. I still applied and got in. If your niece was so easily put off, it’s not for her. Resilience is important.

Also, at postgrad level, admissions is primarily interested in your degree performance rather than school exams.

She knows the niece isn’t likely to get an offer if she applies now.

The SIL’s upset is not at all reasonable, but there is no guarantee that she would be more reasonable if the OP gave the niece bad advice on a subject that she obviously understands.

Does your SIL need your brothers permission to speak?

But it's by definition a waste to apply to four places - assuming an applicant gets into one of those places. Many students end up getting to university via Clearing too. Some of them will have wasted effort X 5.

The OP should have told the DN that everyone hedges bets, making sure there are at least two courses/ universities they can be fairly sure of getting into, emphasising that university applications need to have a strategic element.

The OP could have chosen many tactful approaches, but instead chose the slash and burn alternative and now needs to repair family relationships.

You can and people do get in with a 6 in one or more subjects, since Oxford consider the best 8 (or 9 for a few subjects GCSEs) in deciding who to interview, combined with entrance test result where applicable.

Reality testing can be painful. Re. OP’s advice for doing an MA at Oxford- the criteria are much less stringent. Masters degrees generally are cash cows, so not at all selective. Also: as a professor a RG uni, we do look at GCSE grades and have done evidence-based research that shows that GCSE marks often determine how well one does for the undergrad degree. And we also know that undergrads who did the IB are way more prepared for and successful in uni than the overly-narrowly exam-based A-level students. IB really does teach critical thinking.

If you are going to be bothered if family are upset with you (as the op is), then common sense should tell you being tactful is likely a better option for you than being ‘right’.

Oxford do not use contextual data when making offers. Offer making at Oxford is done solely on the basis of interview performance and entrance test performance where there is one.
Oxford do though use contextual data in decisions as to who to interview.

You have misunderstood the post, which is saying that getting a top 20 GCSE grade won’t guarantee a place. However it also says

They ARE used as an initial screen or they simply couldn’t get through the volumes of applications

The criteria for postgrad admissions also vary hugely depending on the course, because there is much greater variation in the courses than there is at undergraduate level.

So it’s better to mislead?

How is it ‘slash and burn’ to be honest about the university admissions process?

Yes fair enough. At interview stage - that’s what matters I think.

I went to Oxford. She would need straight As unless she aces the entrance exam. Then there's the interview and every college is looking for different attributes. Some are all about academic achievement while others want to see evidence of extra curricular involvement. Some colleges have a history of taking students from certain schools. It's a stressful process and I think you were fair to advise her as you did and not set her up for failure.