Aibu to wonder why private schools produce more "well rounded" children? Is it the school or the parents?

[Kenthighst]

I know all state schools produce well rounded children eg those kids that are academic, musical, sporty, confident, excel at drama & can try their hand at anything.

But private schools churn out well rounded kids so aibu to wonder if it is the actual school who produce these kids or is it parental input?

I lecture at university and find it's the private school students who struggle with the independent nature of the work. I think they've had such small class sizes and such support for so long they find it challenging to be one out of 500 and expected to just get on with the work. The state school students are far more resilient.

DC state educated, loads of opportunities to learn outside of school with residential trips, excursions etc. Lots of music related stuff in our case. It's the parents. Without drive from parents, children don't succeed in life.

Anecdotally the level of academic support students in the 6th form receives varies wildly school by school. Friends with teens at private school get way more assistance with NEAs than our kids but it varies state by state too. Makes me think contextual offers are fair to level it out.

The research I read (admittedly some years ago, but a really big study) found two factors contributed most to children’s educational outcomes:

1. stable home life
2. well behaved and motivated peers in their class at school.

when these things were taken into consideration, the differences that didn’t improve educational outcomes substantially were:

1. Money
2. state v private
3. going to a school with an excellent reputation
4. the teacher

Children at private schools and grammar schools are more likely to have the top two.

If, by well rounded, you mean something unrelated to educational outcomes, then I expect it also amounts to the willingness of parents to pay for clubs and music lessons. You can get all if that in the community, but private schools provide it onsite. Where I live the kids at private schools who get into the A teams for sport also do county level sport after school and at weekends. The musical kids have parents who instilled a practice routine as well as paying for lessons. The keen riders spend their entire weekend at the livery yard volunteering. It comes down to parents setting an example if making an effort. I know children who I consider to be well rounded and well mannered in both the local state school (which doesn’t have a great reputation, but us in a man area without much deprivation) and a variety of independent schools. They all have lovely, engaged parents.

This is a great point. I find children who are taught in difficult surroundings from the get go in primary with social problems around them fare better. They learn to adapt quickly and be flexible that life isn't always perfect. As you say, more resilient.

Paying privately doesn't equip children with these real life skills. Life isn't always perfect.

That's odd. I am a university lecturer and have absolutely no idea what schools my students have been to. How can you know?

My parents were very poor. They moved from East London in search of better opportunities for their DC (better schools). Both left school at 14 without matriculating.
Despite never having been to “formal dinner parties” they taught us good table manners just in case. I went to my first of these aged 36! (It was an industry awards one).
I believe it was because WWII was a great leveller: my DF had served, so was eligible to go on to study (as long as he pursued a career in teaching), so he rubbed shoulders with all sorts of people when in the army and at college.
We were read to, encouraged to read widely ourselves from a young age, had BBC Radio 4 on all day (no TV) and got taken to local opera, concerts and ballet from a young age, discussed world affairs and News Etc. on a daily basis.
Every parent has the opportunity to better themselves and therefore, better the lives of their children.
If a parent’s expectation is to spend each moment playing Candy Canes on their phone while their DC get on with their benign parenting, they will have fewer opportunities than the kids whose parents engage and provide these.

I apologise for not having read the whole thread - I sometimes like to just answer the OP without the influence of other pps.

I've worked in state and private schools, and I'd say the 'roundedness' and other characteristics of children is hugely, hugely a result of parenting, and this cuts both ways - it can be good or bad. I've known lovely families at state schools whose children would be a credit anywhere. I've also known what I call 'underprivileged rich children' at private schools where neither parent has the time or interest in the child. School isn't a substitute for parenting, and I know that some of the saddest private school students' parents expected the school to make up the deficiencies in their role - but this isn't possible.

Yes, private school students usually have more opportunities in terms of activities and clubs, and these activities will often do more ambitious projects - such as overseas sports and music tours. This is all great, but I wouldn't worry about the lack of elite sport or choir tours to Venice necessarily - they are the icing on the cake.

What I do think private schools do is to largely eliminate the disruptive element in classes, which is incredibly advantageous to all the other children! They won't tolerate crap from anyone - they can't, because the parents who are paying £30K a year won't put up with lessons being disrupted. I so wish more state parents had that attitude! Even though they're not paying fees, if they marched on the school with pitchforks when their children's classes were being ruined by disruptive children* it would shake things up a bit.

*Disclaimer: I know that disruptive children are so for a reason and that they need to be provided for. But I think the whole system which allows lessons to be disrupted on a regular basis has got to change.

Couldn’t agree more about behaviour being a key issue. Moved my child to private due to the incredible levels of violence in the state school (lauded as one of the very best schools in Scotland). In the private school, in a 60 min lesson they are taught for 60 mins. In the state school in a 60 min lesson 1/3rd of the time would be spent sorting out the disruptive kids. State school kids are only getting 2/3rds of the education private school kids get. That is the main reason that private schools get better results and the kids are happier.

How do state schools address this? It’s very straightforward. Bring back permanent exclusion and pupil referral units and don’t be afraid to use them regularly. Oh but that costs money!

I'm calling bollocks on this. How would you know which of your students were privately educated? Do they wear a sign?

I know a number of people who were privately educated and I wouldn't call all of them well rounded. Reclusive, odd maybe.

Private school educated children tend to come with an air of confidence sometimes (not always) arrogance that gives them away a belief in themselves that is installed in private schools sadly their privilege is not always acknowledged and often ignored

I can tell a private school child a mile off my ds (he is aware how lucky he is as this has been taught to him by myself and his dad) and his school friends all like to think they are London street boys but there is just something about them that gives them away. He has friends from all schools in the area they all hang about together all dress the same all have the same big hair but you just can pick them out

bless their cotton socks

Well I speak to them and ask them questions about their backgrounds. I also teach on topics where social mobility is relevant so it comes up in class discussion a fair bit.

I'm surprised because my 4dc have all been or are at private schools (3 are adults now) and I've never felt they were spoon fed. Admittedly my elder 2 dds' school was pretty bog standard and neither of them struggled at Cambridge where the terms were very intense and they were expected to do a lot of self study. I suppose there is as much difference between different private schools as there are between different state schools.

The being able to “spot a private school child” is utter hogwash. Dd2 is at state and socialises in a mixed state / private set no way you could tell who goes to which school. The only teens dd2 has experienced unpleasantness from is public school boys. The kids from normal private schools she has found are lovely as are public school girls.

Squishwallow · Today 07:24
I lecture at university and find it's the private school students who struggle with the independent nature of the work. I think they've had such small class sizes and such support for so long they find it challenging to be one out of 500 and expected to just get on with the work. The state school students are far more resilient.

That's interesting! But I think it's a massive generalisation.

Yes, I get what you mean in the sense that, once the playing field is levelled at university, some privately educated students who possibly benefited from the small class sizes and more contact time with teachers will fall back a bit.

But I don't think it can be true across the board. I remember a documentary where Andrew Neil (state educated, working class background) investigated just what it is about public schools that seems to give students, esp boys, an advantage in life.

He spoke to students at a number of schools but the interviews he had with Eton boys were very telling and the boys were very perceptive about their situation. He asked why so many politicians etc have come from Eton and one of the boys said 'We're expected to organise ourselves from an early age, and to organise our clubs and activities to a great extent, so I suppose we feel we can do anything'. So, in their clubs, the masters took very little part - the boys did much more than would be allowed in a state school, especially when it came to things like organising speakers or visitors for events.

I know this was true (but not to the same extent!) at the independent school I worked at for a while. This gave them huge confidence, especially in dealing with people of different ages and generations. Of course there are other, obvious, factors at play too, but I think the expectations of boys at places like Eton force them to raise their game.

Squishwallow · Today 13:18
Well I speak to them and ask them questions about their backgrounds.

Ooh - I'm not sure I like the sound of that! Is that OK with them, or do they feel uncomfortable, especially if you ask them in front of other students?

I would have hated a lecturer to ask me about my background at university, not because I was ashamed of it, but because it's personal information and, yes, people do tend to label or stereotype you.

My two go to private - I think a mix of both. I just want them to be kind and good kids. The kids in private have so much on offer in terms of extra curricular. They do encourage the kids quite a lot as compared to the state schools some of my close friends go to - things like debate class, choir with the opportunity to sing in Westminster A etc etc. The parents also have to do quite a lot to encourage this - we spend a lot of time driving them here there and everywhere. I cannot tell you how many hours I’ve spent watching recitals etc. I don’t hear of things like that being pushed in state. I have a niece who works in a state school and she does as best she can but she says most of the teachers just do the bare minimum.

Yes the bare minimum 🙄🙄🙄 dd predicted a star a a at a levels currently working her socks off. The bare minimum. How dare you.

And some of her teachers are amazing

Having taught in all types of schools, I can absolutely assure you that the state school teachers are working their arses off- it’s generally much easier to teach in a private school and the hours are much shorter!

My experience of those who were privately educated when at university was that there was a great variance, some who were confident and went on to success, and others who were emotionally limited.

i was privately educated at a very good school whilst a few have done exceptionally well quite a lot have had very average careers,
a few in acting/music which feels very middle class.

Not unlike those who went to State school IOW

Exactly. There are confident/ shy teens at all strata’s of society and at all types of school - much depends on parenting / innate character. One friends teen Dd is mute with shyness I’ve barely heard her speak the other friends Dd is head girl of her school and will take over the world. Former private latter state.