Toilet training before school

[jackass232]

I saw a piece on the news last night about how there's been a big rise in the number of children starting school not fully toilet trained. I think the figures were something like 13% of kids in any reception class are not fully trained and that teachers are on average spending 2.5 hours per day dealing with toileting accidents and issues.

Obviously this is quite shocking (I expected to see a MN post about it actually, sorry if I missed one) but I can sympathise as my ds started reception with issues surrounding pooing - mostly holding onto it, becoming constipated and having leaks. I remember always packing spare pants for him and I know the TA had to help him change a lot. This wasn't anything to do with laziness on my part. He was just hard to toilet train and continued with these issues for quite some years. The school was always lovey about it but I felt very embarrassed and upset on behalf of my son.

I feel the general narrative behind this story is that parents just can't be arsed to toilet train their kids and are happily sending them in and letting teachers deal with them. But that's not always the case. I know it's a big drain on schools but what's the answer? And why has there been such a rise?

Is it not because rather than being lazy, to buy a house these days usually requires two full time incomes so people just don’t have the time to consistently train their kids, thus it takes longer?

I managed but was lucky dc picked toilet training up super fast. That’s not always the case and if you’re both at work and child is at nursery / childminder it’s hard to achieve that consistency.

People need to stop blaming the parents and saying they are lazy. It’s the bloody economy and boomers sit in judgement while their kids and grandkids suffer.

It’s like increasing levels of tooth decay in children. Blame the parents? No I blame the bloody government because where I live it’s impossible to find an NHS dentist even for children! So that means children are missing out on fluoride varnish and regular check ups. That’s what protects their teeth in addition to regular brushing. It’s an absolute fucking disgrace that people blame lazy parenting and people in government think introducing toothbrushing at breakfast club will help. An utter disgrace.

Sorry but I totally disagree with you on the teeth. The kids I work with who have decay are all the ones who bring in sweets for snack, have juice in their water bottles despite this not being allowed. What do you actually need the dental checks and fluoride for if you’re looking after your kids’ teeth properly at home?

It’s not necessarily lazy parenting, often it’s just ignorant parenting. But I live somewhere where all kids have access to free toothbrushes and toothpaste (Scottish Childsmile program) and there are still kids whose teeth are obviously not getting taken care of.

Turns out that she is, yes!

I sometimes wonder if the number of children with constipation and with holding poo issues is also related. I have a photo of my dd aged about 18 months sitting on a potty , together with the rest of her nursery group, about 10 children. As far as I remember they were sat on their pots at various times during the day, (Terry nappies for most of them the rest of the time as disposables were only for emergencies in those days) on a potty is a much more natural position for a natural bowel movement.

I also agree with the poster up thread about tooth decay. Tooth disease is totally preventable for the vast majority of children, diet and tooth cleaning is the answer. I once read an article by a dentist who said she still supervised her childrens tooth brushing, (as in brushed their teeth for them), up until the age of seven.

Crikey, us Boomers are now being blamed for the parents of today keeping their wains in nappies until 4. Heard it all now.

Last year I spent the whole six week summer holidays trying to toilet train 3 year old DC2. Made zero progress as he had zero awareness of his bowel and bladder. He is awaiting autism assessment and currently going through the ECHP process. I have some holiday over Easter and we are having another crack at in then. I really want him to be toilet trained before school!

Ds is 5 in April, has an autism diagnosis and has been in mainstream since September.

Please don't worry and don't let what people say here get to you.

There's a long time before your little one is at school, but you can't force interoception, all you can work on is a routine, but if it's frustrating then your LO won't be receptive to it until they're ready.

Ds is now sometimes managing to hold it for when there's a potty nearby, but won't go at school or in public, but there is improvement.

Nevertheless, he's entitled to an education and schools will work out an intimate care plan.

He shouldn't have to change to suit the needs of the adults at school, they should be working around him and his needs, and change will happen when it happens.

Wish you and your little one all the best. 💓

Once that's sorted it should get better

But @maddiemookins16mum made a good point though...So many factors are at play here.

@goodkidsmaadhouse if children were able to access a dentist regularly then the tooth decay would be picked up and treated early. You are misguided if you think that diet and brushing alone can solve this problem.

Look at the drop in the number of children visiting a dentist and being able to access dental care in this country. No breakfast club brushing, free toothbrushes or even good parenting is going to solve the tooth decay problem alone. Even the best parents who get their children to brush regularly and properly could miss tooth decay if there aren’t regular dental checkups.

It’s a disgrace, like living in a third world country and people blaming lazy parents or thinking cheap fixes like brushing at breakfast club or giving away toothbrushes is going to solve the problem aren’t looking at the main issue here.

I honestly believe there is a window for toilet training and if you miss it, then it becomes very complex to achieve. The trend (and advice from health professionals) is to wait until they are really ready and not stress about it and I think alot of people miss this window.

also kids are more likely to eat diets today that cause constipation. Constipation is a massive issue now and this makes training more complex.

So no - not lazy parents.

@Photonb Well actually free toothbrushes (and the other facets of the Childsmile programme, which include education for kids and parents about tooth brushing) have made a massive difference in Scotland. Decay in 5 year olds has gone down from 60% before the programme started to 26% in 2020. Still a long way to go but that’s a huge improvement.

Yes, if tooth decay can be caught early that’s great. But tooth decay can be avoided entirely in most cases with the right diet and tooth care.

@goodkidsmaadhouseif children were able to access a dentist regularly then the tooth decay would be picked up and treated early. You are misguided if you think that diet and brushing alone can solve this problem.

Why would all these children have tooth decay if they're being looked after properly?

Comfortable nappies and laziness.

I saw this article by Bristol university and it reminded me of this thread.

It says “there is growing evidence that a later age at potty training is associated with a child’s future risk of having problems attaining and maintaining bladder and bowel control.
Children whose potty training began after their second birthday have an increased risk of daytime urinary incontinence (alone and accompanied by bedwetting) at primary-school age”.

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/policybristol/policy-briefings/incontinence-mental-health/?fbclid=IwAR2N-aoTCbYeHtC-JBfNKoMDXHkA6JWvQrQTvMfMRIFi4JzFxv7lwCf9iAc_aem_AQq3UDMmROkEc2p6ptTfLxMbYZPxK9lZJWqKvsBVwB2o6bsELMagg6jLW2tjZG9wmtk

What stops tooth decay is not eating sugar. It’s that simple.

no sugar = no decay

Brush s much as you like, if the diet is poor and full of sugar the teeth will decay.

How long could they hold it before they needed a wee? How did you manage when you were out and about?

@Maelil01 sugar is everywhere, bread, pasta, milk, fruit. Any of these items can cause tooth decay. Regular dental checkups is the way forward because it’s impossible for children to avoid sugars. It’s idiotic to think otherwise

These foods do contain carbohydrates but it’s sucrose that is the main causative factor. This is refined sugar and it’s not idiotic to think it can be avoided,
Dental checkups do not prevent disease.

Are you a dentist?

@Maelil01 Refined sugars are everywhere including bread, it is absolutely idiotic to think that children can avoid them completely. You can barely buy a tin of tomatoes or pasta sauce where sugar hasn’t been heaped in. It’s naive to think everybody can cook from scratch and make their own bread and sauces etc.

Regular dental checkups can prevent a whole host of diseases and issues not just tooth decay. That’s the crux of the matter but views like yours will help the government continue to get away with underfunding dentistry. Yeah sure, just give out free toothbrushes. That’ll do it. As if!

Facts are facts, not “views”.
Odd that seems to bother you and btw, you’ve no idea what my views are.

You have to question why though.

Parents are waiting until kids show signs of readiness so kids who have longterm issues are likely to show signs of being ready to train later.

Not that training later leads to the longterm issues. It's the on going issues that mean parents train later in the first place.

I think with more parents working they rely on nursery to introduce toilet training and it is often easier in nursery to just put pull on pants on the children , training has to be introduced at home first with lots of praise and then ask nursery to continue . Some children do have issues in school and should be supported , many boys in reception are scared of the automatic flushing in boys urinals and find it scary and refuse to go on their own , tell the T A and she will go with them until they gain confidence .

Just to follow on from this. My DD has now seen a consultant and been diagnosed with a bladder issue and prescribed ongoing medication as well as some exercises to try and do. At least I can turn up at school in September and confidently know I'm not a shit parent who hasn't been able to toilet train. There is an issue. Advise to anyone, if in doubt, seek medical help. Kicking myself for the hard time me and husband have given ourselves on why we can't get this sorted.

In part it is busy parents - we've had a few parents of just two year olds who are showing an interest and the parents ask us to help them continue potty training at nursery as well as home. Most of these will be fully trained by 2.5yr or so. Some parents we tell when we notice they are ready (around 2/2.5) but they don't want to start yet as they are too busy and then they miss the window and have a stubborn 3yo refusing to cooperate which can then take longer.

Some children have SEN or developmental delays.

Some children have physical issues around toileting and are on medication that messes up their perception of the need to poo etc and these children can be older when they finally toilet train.