Toilet training before school

[jackass232]

I saw a piece on the news last night about how there's been a big rise in the number of children starting school not fully toilet trained. I think the figures were something like 13% of kids in any reception class are not fully trained and that teachers are on average spending 2.5 hours per day dealing with toileting accidents and issues.

Obviously this is quite shocking (I expected to see a MN post about it actually, sorry if I missed one) but I can sympathise as my ds started reception with issues surrounding pooing - mostly holding onto it, becoming constipated and having leaks. I remember always packing spare pants for him and I know the TA had to help him change a lot. This wasn't anything to do with laziness on my part. He was just hard to toilet train and continued with these issues for quite some years. The school was always lovey about it but I felt very embarrassed and upset on behalf of my son.

I feel the general narrative behind this story is that parents just can't be arsed to toilet train their kids and are happily sending them in and letting teachers deal with them. But that's not always the case. I know it's a big drain on schools but what's the answer? And why has there been such a rise?

I’m sorry you’ve had such a rough time. Neurodiversity adds a whole new layer doesn’t it

@iverpickle
I dont quite get your point other than diagnosis seems more efficient where you are? Or are you saying that children with send arent incontinent abroad?

Im saying, as someone working in an infant school. All our children in nappies have significant SEND. They used to be in special schools. The schools are full. They are now mainstream. Children, who are paraplegic and only respond to light. I dont believe in your country the would use a toilet at 2. I just dont get how.

Children do have accidents. The survey looked at occassional v frequent accident, stating frequent accidents were 'not toilet trained' people are suggesting this is because people are toilet training at 3 not 2.

It gave no explanation as to why children could be having more frequent accidents post covid even though people were toilet training at 3 before covid - this isnt new. That was roughly when everyone was doing 18 years ago too.

It could be language skills so difficulty asking for the loo. It could be lack of access to healthcare at key times. It could be lower staffing levels meaning children struggling to get their coat off so they dont get to the loo on time or toiket blocks being closed for parts of the day.

seems odd that children pre covid were fine in their disposible nappies with lazy parents, but post covid parent suddenly got lazier and nappies more comfy.

@Spendonsend
Yes, I am agreeing with you. There have always been and will always be children with SEN who won't be able to toilet train, wherever they are and whenever they start, be it 2,3,4, 20 whatever. I think that this number will be similar throughout the western world.

I don't think however that the fact that many more children with SEN are now in mainstream school can be the reason because had it been the reason then teachers themselves would have been the first to pick up on it.

My point was that this leaves changes in society, which in turn have led to changes in developmental stages in children.

If you say that post Covid these changes have amplified, rather than a steadily growing trend then, as you say, there could be a whole host of reasons, as to why, and a combination of them has led to the results of this survey. I hadn't realised that the difference was so noticeable from pre 2020, and when I was answering in previous posts I had presumed it was a more gradual change.

trained at 18 months, my kids could barely walk at that age.

Yes, all sorts of things affect toilet training- my son might have known he needed a wee at 18 months, but he no way had the executive functioning skills or motor skills to sort out going to the toilet.

If you are having to constantly observe your child for signs they need a wee, then get them to a toilet and do all the practical stuff for them then they aren’t actually toilet trained in any meaningful sense.

But it's a step in the right direction

Children do not need to be able to walk or talk. I have helped toilet train SEN children who sign toilet using makaton and who are unlikely to ever be able to walk. They can still ask to be taken to the toilet.

Kids with constipation are toilet trained they have overflow which is nothing to do with training - this specifically said kids who are not toilet trained and SEN aside it is purely down to lazy parenting.

Kids come into school not being able to wipe their own bums mostly, unable to flush a toilet as the parent wipes and flushed for them, not often can they wash their hands afterwards. Now only are the not competent in using the toilet it is all the other aspects that go alongside it too.

Kids smear poo up the walls, the put used paper on the floor as they have never had to put it in the toilet before they came to school as someone else did the paper bit for them. They leave poo in the bowl, on the seat and often walk into class pants down and bend over for staff to wipe!

Each year it gets worse.

I.toilet trained my non verbal.child at 9/10 I know they can be toilet trained but it takes a huge amount of effort to do.it actually I had to get my child's special school to agree to help me they were unwilling at first to help as they said he wasn't ready but eventually between us we did it

@x2boys well done. Agree it can take a long time.

My 2yo toilet trained herself so it definitely is possible to do very little and the problem solve itself 😂We were waiting until baby came to train her even though I thought she was ready at 20 months. The week baby came she announced she was using the potty and never looked back. My friend's little boy she had to push to train at 24 months and he had quite a few accidents for a while but was fine. My other friend has a 3 yo who she's been trying to train for ages in the same way as friend 1 trained her son, and it's just not working and he's getting upset and not wanting to use the potty ever. Another friend's daughter was potty trained at 1 as she was signing that she wanted to go to the toilet, didn't like having wet nappies, and she just got the process very quickly. Persistence and using the right method is definitely part of it but there definitely is a readiness aspect I think, if you push too hard too early it makes things worse.

@WithACatLikeTread

I have a son who barely sits still. I just bribed him - he was 2.5 and perfectly capable of deciding to do something for a chocolate button, then once he agreed to sit down, he got buttons for sitting down and doing something, then for a few in a row etc, until he just did it for praise without also looking for a button. It also sweetened the deal for my older child who had to put up with less fun whilst we did it and she helped me in encouraging him. He had loads of accidents on day 1 and 2 and my husband told me to give up because he had no idea what was normal and thought my DS was not going to get it, but by day 3s and 4 he was doing really well and he agreed it would be mad to go back.

Good luck!

I might try that with my son. Anything to do with food is on a winner. My daughter would not be bribed at that age but being a helper might be appealing for her.

Haven't rtft yet but at first glance it seems to be an issue with pre school aged children. I work with this age group and part of our job is to make sure they toilet independently. They are supposed to be trained before they start but for many that means knowing when it's coming and needing help. We work on training them to do the other bits, pulling up and down clothes, hand washing etc. I wonder is it more of this culture of parents babying children, we see many with zero self care skills.

I would never ever judge a parent for not fully training a child though, some children are simply not capable. A lot of early training before 20 yrs ago was based around accurately predicting. Food and drink was timed strictly too. I wonder is the modern day snacking habit and constant access to water making patterns harder to predict.

Decided to potty train DS at 2.5yrs, put it in the diary, took time off work and informed nursery who told me he was far too young and if I pushed 'potty learning' too early I'd cause all sorts of awful trauma he'd carry through to adulthood.
I backed down (first baby) but 8 weeks later decided to go ahead whilst on holiday and he took to it within 5 days. Some accidents but minimal resistance and I'd say he felt quite proud of himself.
He's nearly 4 now and the parents who tried it later seemed to have far worse problems with kids resisting and getting anxious.
ALOT of us parents were warned not to train by nursery who I suspect find nappies far easier to manage than multiple children needing that constant 'potty learning' eye on them.
Training any behaviour takes repetition and consistency that working parents struggle for beyond a bank holiday weekend. Then we have to ask a busy childcare setting to have a constant eye on our kid to continue that. Some of those won't let the kids out of nappies until they're 100% dry. So it's really easy to blame 'lazy parenting' rather than 'full time working parents attempting to do something that often can't be achieved within a 48 hour weekend'.

@Mnk711 I think it is like all skills. Some children get it very quickly and easily, and some need a lot of help and support to learn the skills.

While diagnosis has definitely increased, those numbers actually affected hasn't, and so this should make no difference to toilet training.

It is not easier to change a 4 year olds nappy than toilet train a child who is more difficult to toilet train.
I have changed teenagers and adults nappies/incontinence pants. Changing a 4 year old I do not see as a big deal personally. But when a child is struggling to learn toilet training it takes a lot of work and can be a bit soul destroying.

It does sound like part of the issue is nurseries. Not all children can be toilet trained with a week off work. Some take many many months of constant reinforcing and consistency and if the nursery are not also doing this, then it is going to be extremely difficult to achieve.

I was lucky that mine weren't in nursery when I trained them. Those policies of completely toilet trained or nappies must be a huge obstacle for working parents.

While I know many nurseries are struggling I think we need to point the finger here too. It's not realistic to expect a child to be in nappies to make it easier for nursery and to be instantly toilet trained to make things easier for teachers.

I think you are missing the point. Sure, parents may well take a week's holiday. But if the nursery policy is that the child is not allowed to be in nursery without a nappy until completely toilet trained, and they've not been able to get it within that week, then what? Take another week off work? A month off work? Quit their job, in the name of CONSISTENCY?

My DD is 3.5, has been out of nappies since Sept but still hasn’t got the hang of pooing. We can get through 5 pairs a pants a day as she tries to poo. She starts school
in Sept and I’m dreading it not being sorted by then but am at a loss about what else we can do. She has been late for every milestone and we tried twice to potty train before having any success.

Agree with your final paragraph. I think part of the issue is being constantly told on MN and similar that if they’re ready it should only take a few days. In reality for lots of people it is a slog. I started with my DS at 2.5 and he took to it quite quickly … but then started having constant ‘dribble’ accidents. Never completely soaked and sometimes didn’t even need to change his trousers but the dribble phase went on for months and months, I remember being so frustrated at the time and even posting on here about it. But eventually he did get it. I don’t think it would have helped to put him back in nappies.

Consistency during the process is the key. If it is properly applied, then the fail rate which would require another, longer approach, is extremely low.

Instantly potty trained to make things easier for the teachers?!?!
Really! The teachers who are there to, you know, teach tour child to read and write among so much else. NOT to toilet train your child or spend time changing nappies and cleaning up. How can they even be out of the classroom to fo that. Total madness.

Try reading what I actually wrote.

I think it’s a combination of factors. I think it’s partly that most parents now have to work, DH specifically booked time off work to toilet train DS and I used my summer holidays (as a teacher) to toilet train DD after a couple of false starts - she really didn’t get it. I can imagine it was probably far easier to do it earlier when traditionally one parent was at home and a child wasn’t moving between multiple settings (nursery, grandparents, home) for example.

I also know that some of the SEN kids I’ve known who haven’t been toilet trained for reception historically would have been at a special school, and now are mainstream. I include my DS in that, he’s autistic and 30 years ago wouldn’t have been in mainstream. He had loads of toileting accidents at school in reception, and thankfully staff were always very understanding and kind.