Toilet training before school

[jackass232]

I saw a piece on the news last night about how there's been a big rise in the number of children starting school not fully toilet trained. I think the figures were something like 13% of kids in any reception class are not fully trained and that teachers are on average spending 2.5 hours per day dealing with toileting accidents and issues.

Obviously this is quite shocking (I expected to see a MN post about it actually, sorry if I missed one) but I can sympathise as my ds started reception with issues surrounding pooing - mostly holding onto it, becoming constipated and having leaks. I remember always packing spare pants for him and I know the TA had to help him change a lot. This wasn't anything to do with laziness on my part. He was just hard to toilet train and continued with these issues for quite some years. The school was always lovey about it but I felt very embarrassed and upset on behalf of my son.

I feel the general narrative behind this story is that parents just can't be arsed to toilet train their kids and are happily sending them in and letting teachers deal with them. But that's not always the case. I know it's a big drain on schools but what's the answer? And why has there been such a rise?

Exactly- Teachers become teachers to teach. No wonder recruitment is so difficult nowadays.

This with bells on

My daughter wouldn't sit on a potty at three. How the hell do you toilet train then? Perfect parent brigade. I will wait until nearly three for my son. More likely to be ready.

I have two children 7 and 9. 7 year old is still in nappies.

We've done everything physically possible. It isn't lazy parenting when it takes me 10 minutes to sort him out 6-7 times a day whereas 9 YO I just have to nag her to flush the loo 10 times a day. He can't be left at any clubs or extra curriculurs. When we go out the planning of how to change him takes utmost priority.

He came home from school yesterday soaked through because we are trying a new tactic to help him and it clearly didn't work. He was mortified. I have never met a typical 4 or 5 year old who would allow themselves to be in a nappy if they could in anyway avoid it

My daughter was toilet trained for wees when she started school (summer born) but refused to poo on the toilet and poo her pants. Sometimes you just can't force it. Figured it out herself a bit later.

@x2boys
I 'm not sure how better to say this.
Are you saying that proportionally the Uk has more children with developmental delays then?

No I'm saying being late to toilet train is a developmental delay

And I'm not sure if I have understood you correctly.
If you are saying that not being toilet trained is an additional need, then you are obviously correct. This child needs additional assistance with toileting. We can agree that whatever the cause the result is the same, the child should have the assistance.
However if you are saying that all of the children who come to school and need help with using the toilet need that assistance because of an innate condition, diagnosed or not, then I disagree, because otherwise, how would you explain the difference found in other countries and a few decades ago in the UK.
That's why I said it's part of larger societal changes which include all sorts of factors.

@x2boys

Ok, we can call it a developmental delay, of which the root cause for a proposition of children will be a medical need, others will be societal change. The increase in numbers will be down to the latter in my opinion.

There are two conversations happening.
Has toilet training shifted from around 2 on average to around 3 on average. Yes probably, but thats been for quite some time now and probably is a society shift. Disposable nappies have been in use for a long time. My 30 year old brother was in disposables.

Is this the cause of a sudden leap in more teacher reporting children have frequent accidents in school since covid? not so clear. Is this the cause of more children arriving in reception in nappies? Also not clear. Especially as the numbers of children who would have been in SEN school previously but are now mainstream has definitely jumped and actually surival rates for premsture children have increased.

Did you try her on the potty earlier, eg 18 months? If you leave it too late, yes the child can resist doing what you’re asking them to do. That’s one of a few reasons to start earlier. Not only that, most potties are made for younger children, so some of the reluctance to sit on it can be due to simple discomfort.

The (proper quality) toilet seat inserts are very good for children who aren’t so keen on a potty. Ideally, you’d have both and use as and when needed, and, within reason, according to the child’s preference. Some children actually like the seat insert best.

You left it too late is why.

Toilet seat inserts are great, we never used potties much

Few different factors for me:

• children are away from their parents more, time spent together is precious and toilet training falls in priority.

• there are lots of children in a mainstream reception class who 20, 30 years ago would have been in a special school.

• grandparents are working more. Sure start centres are closing. The vulnerable parents who would need to be encouraged to help their kids with this stuff don't have that community support any more.

• disposable nappies I have a ridiculous, unspoken, tin foil hat theory that they have an unseen effect on our brains understanding of cause and effect. I wonder if the advancement of wicking the wet away in order to be comfortable actually hinders development in some way.

It's a commercial winner for Pampers etc, how long will it be before nappies for Year 7 are introduced. I know that we dreadful boomers are considered to be totally wrong having our children out of nappies by 2 but at least we weren't expecting others to deal with our children's toilet habits beyond the odd genuine accident!

If a child is starting school not toilet trained then a parent should be available all day to come into the school and deal with it, excluding certified medical reasons.

I wonder if the advancement of wicking the wet away in order to be comfortable actually hinders development in some way.

Nothing like a soggy terry nappy for encouraging a child to use the toilet, if I had a disposable nappy on I think I could sleep all through the night without getting up for the loo.

I do.

My son is 5 in April, and isn't potty trained. He is autistic, but I do feel like he is very capable.

We have been trying to potty train since nursery started for him which was 3 years ago. Nursery weren't on board with us doing it, kept pushing it back, then before he went to school in September they realised it would be an issue, all our efforts in the holidays were thwarted by their inability to continue our hard work to the routine we had set, and now he is in school, he is out of nappies, but he will not use a toilet for wees or poos and withholds.

We've been supported by the health visitors, GP, SCI team, ERIC, play specialists, alsorts.

I only put my son in nursery because I HAD to work, there's no way I could have delayed working to support him toileting and unfortunately I am a single parent in a mutigenerational and special needs household, with one bathroom, and it seems absolutely impossible to coordinate.

I also did an ERIC toileting course for special needs recently and everything they said contradicted the last.

Make sure you change your children in the bathroom, but we understand bathrooms are sensory nightmares for autistic children and should be avoided when distress is caused, your child doesn't need to show signs of readiness to be toilet trained, but don't push them if they're not ready, don't put nappies or pull ups on your children so they learn to hold it in when they wear pants but put nappies or pull ups on them if they withhold. If your child is demand avoidant, don't create demands for them by making them go, but make them go and create the demand of allowing them to demand things of other people which in itself is a demand.

Absolutely everything was a contradictory nightmare and absolutely no help, just a waste of time, and I really think the only thing that could have helped was my presence at home permanently to get into a strong and established routine, this was before he was diagnosed, before we knew what he needed support wise and I can't go back in time, so now I and school are struggling with a child who isn't toilet trained but isn't seen as an issue because he withholds for hours until he can get a nappy back on, or soil himself trying.

I tried at two. She was and is a stubborn bugger. Guess your child was perfect?

She was about two? I don't think that is too late. Just refused to sit down long enough to try. At six she is still very energetic. I had problems getting her to stay sitting down during a wee long enough that she wouldn't leak straight after.

I am going to try my son in the summer when he is two and a half but he has a small speech delay so will see how that goes.

@JudgeJ

Yes, I think if that was the case it may reduce the dc in nappies as it would be very inconvenient for the dps.

I don't feel personally insulted at all, my kids were all trained just after they turned 2, I have however worked in a school and can say hands down that almost every child still in nappies when starting school has special needs.
And yes I do think there are more children starting regular schools with special needs than there was decades ago.

Mine both refused to sit on the potty for several days. It was a nightmare but maybe they eventually figured out it was quicker to sit on it than having to stop whatever they were doing for a full wash and clothes change and that I wasn't going to go back to nappies. I think I'd have held out as I hated nappies so much by age 2.

I know this is quite blunt but I actually do agree with this. DS was for the most part potty trained from around 2 years but he was still wearing a night nappy because we didn't trust him to not have accidents at night. Every morning he would wake up with a soaked nappy. When he was about 3 and half, one night we ran out of nappies, it was a Sunday and shops were closed so I told him he's not allowed to pee in bed because he's not wearing any nappy and to our surprise he had a dry night. Tried it again the next night and then again the next night and the rest is history. He's almost 5 now. I can't remember the last time he had an accident. He'd probably still be wearing night nappies if we continued.

We started at 2, we are now nearly a full year in (3 next week) and still having regular daily accidents. DD is always in pants, nappies are for bedtime only. I have approached the HV about this for advice after seeing the news, her response "DD is very young to be potty trained, there are loads of children older than your DD not potty trained. There is no rush".

We have been very unfortunate, as soon as DD seems to have a run of 2 dry weeks, shes down with something. We've had multiple bouts of D+V, 2 UTI's, severe constipation that took 3 months to clear, a whole half term of back to back viruses. We are currently treating another UTI. The Drs are also surprised at how young DD is for been potty trained.

Nursery have been short staffed and will put pull ups on children after 2 accidents at school. They have a SN child who crawls and licks the floor and so they have tightened up on potty training accidents across the board. According to my friends a lot of nurseries around us are also hesitant to potty train, they want them 90% there due to the amount of staffing a potty training child who has frequent accidents requires, the 2 year funding thing and shortage of workers is not helping things. This means parents need to take AL to potty train, hope the DC click and then hope the nursery also continues it.

I have loads of friends with similar aged DC, out of 8 of us, only my DC is potty trained. There are no support services around potty training around us. The HVs don't do potty training workshops which would help parents to start training. I asked about potty training at the 2 yr review (different HV to the one i spoke to on Tuesday) and she said "oh your ages away from having to think about that". When my DD got bad constipation, I asked another HV for advice with poo on the potty and got a similar respone "2 1/2 is very young for potty training so don't worry, pop a pull up back on". So maybe there needs to be some more HV education too.

I've attempted potty training with the advice from tiktok and instagram. Its all full of the 1 week/ 3 day potty training methods, with the, "if this doesn't work after 1 week, your DC isn't ready". IME potty training is a long, hard slog. None of this is in the instas and tiktoks. We are 90% there and just require practice. I am fortunate as I work very part time so have time to train my DD, my FT working friends - not so much.

@Spendonsend

I have lived and worked with children for decades in an European country. In this country nearly 100% of children go to preschool 3-6 where I live , and all provision for SEN, however severe, is provided within this system via specialised 1-1 teachers.
Children are expected, although it's not an official requirement, to be toilet trained when they start, which can be as young as 2 years 9months. And they are.

The children who are not trained either already have a diagnosis, or on the pathway to getting a diagnosis via the paediatrician with which all children have checks at 12/18/24 months. That's it.
You might find the odd parent who will warn teachers that their child might need reminding to go to the toilet at more frequent intervals, usually because they are young in the year and might have only recently trained but that's the extent of it.

Whatever the proportion of children who subsequently receive diagnoses of SEN, either during the 3 years at preschool, or later in primary makes no difference to the fact that almost all these children were toilet trained when they arrived at preschool.

Nobody thinks about whether their child is ready, no one is looking out for signs from the child. No one is worried that it's seen as bad parenting to enforce this. Generally nappies come off in the summer between 18- 24 months.

As I said in a previous comment, I don't think that it's necessarily a bad thing for society to be changing in any given way, just that expectations need to change and society has to adapt. If parents are doing things differently, then automatically there will be differences down the line, and in my opinion this is one of them.
In the preschools where I live there are paid roles which are for people who are not teachers or assistants but part of their role is to help change children who have had accidents for whatever reason, usually things like vomit and diarrhoea, but also helping change children with SEN who are in nappies. There are large open space toilet areas with 10/12 small toilets in the room and sinks, a shower and a changing space for the slightly older children with SEN who may require it. A preschool with say 90 children will have at least 25 toilets available for the kids to use.