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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Calling all men

148 replies

CyclingSam · 22/02/2024 16:49

Is it unreasonable to share the following, specifically addressed to men and crossposted on a number of cycling forums, on a site largely populated by women, because I want their opinions as well?

On my ride yesterday I passed a woman by the side of the road. It happens. They are, after all, half the human race.

She'd been running. No matter, I'll talk to anyone if the opportunity presents itself: even non-cyclists.

I said this: "The roads around here." My full meaning, from one road user to another, was along the lines of "The roads sure are terrible, aren't they?", the context being the appalling stretch of tarmac I had just picked a careful line through.

She looked up, uncertain why I was talking to her. I noticed she appeared to be wearing headphones. She was also a bit younger than I'd first thought, maybe late teens or early 20s. She said "Pardon?"

I don't remember exactly how I replied, only that I hadn't meant to alarm her. She sort of smiled and that was that.

Except that wasn't that. I immediately mentally kicked myself for having disturbed her, on whatever level. That half smile could have meant anything from "You're so right, the bloody council, what are they like?" to "[Smile placates strange man.]"

It's normally fine to chat to people, half the human race included, on these chance encounters. But it's easy to forget, particularly when you're a man, that you should choose your moments carefully.

Example 1: Woman walking dog. Say "Hello!" to announce myself as a passing cyclist (I don't favour bells for this purpose: a little too pushy, despite the seemingly cheery Ring-ring!) A Hello! is always appreciated, judging by how often I'm thanked. The sex of the person never comes into it, other than perhaps a split second as they quickly grok the situation.

Example 2: The scenario presented above. It's unclear why this stranger is suddenly talking to you. While it can be cleared up quickly, it can just as quickly get awkward. Chalk up what they call a teachable moment in a lifetime of them. Every day is school day.

From The Guardian a few years ago:
Men must learn how to make women feel safe while exercising
It is unbelievable that Chris Boardman’s words can be so basic and obvious to female athletes and yet still so needed by men (Calling all men: this is what we can do to help women feel safe exercising in the dark, 30 October). Exercising solo, especially at night, is often a different experience for the two. One day last year I was cycling along the (very wide) Forth and Clyde canal; my fitness was great and I had a fine tailwind. I passed a man who had been dawdling, when suddenly he sped up and started slipstreaming me, within a couple of feet. This was in broad daylight, but the canal was empty.

I was worried in case he was somehow angered by me passing him, so I kept going for around 5km, after which my panic was really starting to interfere aerobically. I signalled that I was going to stop as he was so close to me, sat down on a bench and pulled out some food. He stopped too. “Thanks. I needed that,” he said, before asking me about the rest of my cycle. I refused to engage as I was recovering from the shock. A perfect example of how some men have no idea how intimidating their actions can be to women.

I'm not some knight in shining armour on a mission to protect all womenkind. I'm just a guy offering advice to other guys who may not have given this stuff much thought before.

Men must learn how to make women feel safe while exercising | Letters

Letters: Dr Kathy Dodworth says some men have no idea how intimidating their actions can be. Plus letters from Alison Chubb, David Winter, Frank Paice and Keith Irish

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/nov/04/men-must-learn-how-to-make-women-feel-safe-while-exercising

OP posts:
TotalAbsenceOfImperialRaiment · 23/02/2024 07:00

Strangers don't owe you a conversation. Even if you are a writer (and isn't everybody and his dog a writer nowadays?)

Chickenkeev · 23/02/2024 07:02

TotalAbsenceOfImperialRaiment · 23/02/2024 07:00

Strangers don't owe you a conversation. Even if you are a writer (and isn't everybody and his dog a writer nowadays?)

They're not a writer. They can't write for shite. Bless their cotton socks.

Alchemistress · 23/02/2024 07:07

Oh God. I bet he 'helps' women trying to park as well.

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 07:22

"No matter, I'll talk to anyone if the opportunity presents itself"

Herein lies the problem. You may well be completely harmless and just friendly. But your view of the situation is of a man who knows what his intentions are.

Your perspective is different to a woman.

If I am in public, alone-particularly at night or in a remote place, your social niceties are considered a potential threat.

I'll give an example from this week-out walking the dog in an area that is fairly busy but then becomes more quiet as you progress into the area.

I encounter man 1. Man 1 is apparently taking some pictures of the area, which is very beautiful. Man 1 randomly starts behaving oddly-followed me down a lane, I stopped, man stopped and waited for me to move again in his direction. Happened several times, with me stopping for him to get ahead. Eventually, he stops long enough around a corner for me to catch up.

Tells me he is walking with me. Tells me.

Offers to hold the dog lead. Launches into a long list of very personal questions. Walking the whole way fumbling in pockets. By this point, in broad day light I might add, we are in a very sparsely populated spot. Tried to remain polite but one word answers, stopping with dog etc. Tried changing direction after stopping, was followed again.

This went on for 20 to 30 minutes, until we reached the main road exit, when he promptly walked off. Probably completely harmless. But men as a general group do need to recognise how this is perceived by a lone woman.

Man 2, encountered early on in Man 1's social ambush. Nodded, smiled, remarked on weather and walked off.

Both of these men are probably completely harmless. But Man 1 made me very, very uncomfortable. And I do think its largely down to a complete lack of understanding of how threatening to women these interactions can be.

Other than the briefest of comments and clearly going away as in the case of Man 2, please leave us alone. We will initate conversation if we want to talk.

CarousingPeasants · 23/02/2024 07:35

Your most concerning comment was that you cycle to exercise your social skills, and you say "hello" rather than ring your bell as an invitation to start a conversation. So basically you don't practice what the Guardian article you're touting preaches. Just ring your bell and don't presume to engage lone women (who are naturally and sensibly wary of strange men) in conversation who are out exercising!

When people are out running, walking, cycling, they're exercising. When people are in a pub, a hobby club, a church they're out socialising. There's a big difference between the two scenarios and any expectation of making conversation with strangers. You need to seek out social situations to exercise your "late blooming extrovert" skills on and leave lone women alone. HTH.

TooraLoora · 23/02/2024 07:43

But he's 'quite' happily married

Chickenkeev · 23/02/2024 07:45

CarousingPeasants · 23/02/2024 07:35

Your most concerning comment was that you cycle to exercise your social skills, and you say "hello" rather than ring your bell as an invitation to start a conversation. So basically you don't practice what the Guardian article you're touting preaches. Just ring your bell and don't presume to engage lone women (who are naturally and sensibly wary of strange men) in conversation who are out exercising!

When people are out running, walking, cycling, they're exercising. When people are in a pub, a hobby club, a church they're out socialising. There's a big difference between the two scenarios and any expectation of making conversation with strangers. You need to seek out social situations to exercise your "late blooming extrovert" skills on and leave lone women alone. HTH.

That's exactly it. He's viewing innocent, unsuspecting women as a tool to 'improve his social skills'. Not as actual sentient beings in their own right.

Jc2001 · 23/02/2024 08:00

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 06:23

He says he's a writer. That doesn't mean he's a good one.

He probably just writes a blog noone reads.

Lumiodes · 23/02/2024 08:08

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 07:22

"No matter, I'll talk to anyone if the opportunity presents itself"

Herein lies the problem. You may well be completely harmless and just friendly. But your view of the situation is of a man who knows what his intentions are.

Your perspective is different to a woman.

If I am in public, alone-particularly at night or in a remote place, your social niceties are considered a potential threat.

I'll give an example from this week-out walking the dog in an area that is fairly busy but then becomes more quiet as you progress into the area.

I encounter man 1. Man 1 is apparently taking some pictures of the area, which is very beautiful. Man 1 randomly starts behaving oddly-followed me down a lane, I stopped, man stopped and waited for me to move again in his direction. Happened several times, with me stopping for him to get ahead. Eventually, he stops long enough around a corner for me to catch up.

Tells me he is walking with me. Tells me.

Offers to hold the dog lead. Launches into a long list of very personal questions. Walking the whole way fumbling in pockets. By this point, in broad day light I might add, we are in a very sparsely populated spot. Tried to remain polite but one word answers, stopping with dog etc. Tried changing direction after stopping, was followed again.

This went on for 20 to 30 minutes, until we reached the main road exit, when he promptly walked off. Probably completely harmless. But men as a general group do need to recognise how this is perceived by a lone woman.

Man 2, encountered early on in Man 1's social ambush. Nodded, smiled, remarked on weather and walked off.

Both of these men are probably completely harmless. But Man 1 made me very, very uncomfortable. And I do think its largely down to a complete lack of understanding of how threatening to women these interactions can be.

Other than the briefest of comments and clearly going away as in the case of Man 2, please leave us alone. We will initate conversation if we want to talk.

I encountered a “Man 1” type about 15 years ago. I still remember it because I was so distressed. He tried to talk to me; I responded briefly then walked away. So he followed me. I was so scared that I accosted a complete stranger and asked her for help, and she stayed with me while I called my Dad to pick me up. The man was still watching as we drove away.

Maybe the man just wanted to talk to me. Maybe he fancied me and wanted to chat me up. He didn’t attempt anything other than talking. Yet I was still shit scared.

Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker. We constantly assess our safety. Any red flag behaviour scares us. Following a woman is a red flag. Even just talking to a woman can be a red flag in certain circumstances. If you don’t mean any harm then leave us the fuck alone.

warmheartcoldfeet · 23/02/2024 08:17

Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker

are you getting it yet @CyclingSam ?
Or is it too difficult for you to comprehend?

JacquesHarlow · 23/02/2024 08:50

warmheartcoldfeet · 23/02/2024 08:17

Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker
Men simply don’t understand that to women, every man is a potential attacker

are you getting it yet @CyclingSam ?
Or is it too difficult for you to comprehend?

Well said @warmheartcoldfeet - the OP needs to read this - it’s how many of us feel.

SaraZara · 23/02/2024 08:57

Pigheaded

JohnSt1 · 23/02/2024 09:10

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 07:22

"No matter, I'll talk to anyone if the opportunity presents itself"

Herein lies the problem. You may well be completely harmless and just friendly. But your view of the situation is of a man who knows what his intentions are.

Your perspective is different to a woman.

If I am in public, alone-particularly at night or in a remote place, your social niceties are considered a potential threat.

I'll give an example from this week-out walking the dog in an area that is fairly busy but then becomes more quiet as you progress into the area.

I encounter man 1. Man 1 is apparently taking some pictures of the area, which is very beautiful. Man 1 randomly starts behaving oddly-followed me down a lane, I stopped, man stopped and waited for me to move again in his direction. Happened several times, with me stopping for him to get ahead. Eventually, he stops long enough around a corner for me to catch up.

Tells me he is walking with me. Tells me.

Offers to hold the dog lead. Launches into a long list of very personal questions. Walking the whole way fumbling in pockets. By this point, in broad day light I might add, we are in a very sparsely populated spot. Tried to remain polite but one word answers, stopping with dog etc. Tried changing direction after stopping, was followed again.

This went on for 20 to 30 minutes, until we reached the main road exit, when he promptly walked off. Probably completely harmless. But men as a general group do need to recognise how this is perceived by a lone woman.

Man 2, encountered early on in Man 1's social ambush. Nodded, smiled, remarked on weather and walked off.

Both of these men are probably completely harmless. But Man 1 made me very, very uncomfortable. And I do think its largely down to a complete lack of understanding of how threatening to women these interactions can be.

Other than the briefest of comments and clearly going away as in the case of Man 2, please leave us alone. We will initate conversation if we want to talk.

Man 1 sounds scary.

How can any man who has sisters, daughters, or female friends not know that women constantly feel the need to be on the lookout? It doesn't take a "feminist ally" to know that's it's never acceptable to act in a way that could make a complete stranger feel uncomfortable. Basic human decency should be enough.

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:34

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 07:22

"No matter, I'll talk to anyone if the opportunity presents itself"

Herein lies the problem. You may well be completely harmless and just friendly. But your view of the situation is of a man who knows what his intentions are.

Your perspective is different to a woman.

If I am in public, alone-particularly at night or in a remote place, your social niceties are considered a potential threat.

I'll give an example from this week-out walking the dog in an area that is fairly busy but then becomes more quiet as you progress into the area.

I encounter man 1. Man 1 is apparently taking some pictures of the area, which is very beautiful. Man 1 randomly starts behaving oddly-followed me down a lane, I stopped, man stopped and waited for me to move again in his direction. Happened several times, with me stopping for him to get ahead. Eventually, he stops long enough around a corner for me to catch up.

Tells me he is walking with me. Tells me.

Offers to hold the dog lead. Launches into a long list of very personal questions. Walking the whole way fumbling in pockets. By this point, in broad day light I might add, we are in a very sparsely populated spot. Tried to remain polite but one word answers, stopping with dog etc. Tried changing direction after stopping, was followed again.

This went on for 20 to 30 minutes, until we reached the main road exit, when he promptly walked off. Probably completely harmless. But men as a general group do need to recognise how this is perceived by a lone woman.

Man 2, encountered early on in Man 1's social ambush. Nodded, smiled, remarked on weather and walked off.

Both of these men are probably completely harmless. But Man 1 made me very, very uncomfortable. And I do think its largely down to a complete lack of understanding of how threatening to women these interactions can be.

Other than the briefest of comments and clearly going away as in the case of Man 2, please leave us alone. We will initate conversation if we want to talk.

Man 1 sounds bloody frightening.

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:35

Jc2001 · 23/02/2024 08:00

He probably just writes a blog noone reads.

More than likely!

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:38

JacquesHarlow · 23/02/2024 08:50

Well said @warmheartcoldfeet - the OP needs to read this - it’s how many of us feel.

And we feel this way because of personal experience and/or the multiple daily attacks by men on women.

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 09:43

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:34

Man 1 sounds bloody frightening.

Yes, he was-probably without even realising it.

I am just very, very grateful it was day time, I had the dog with me and he eventually wandered off!

JacquesHarlow · 23/02/2024 09:44

I wonder if @CyclingSam will come back to this thread and read the lived experience of women who don’t want to be spoken to at random in public by a man, however well meaning he claims he is.

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:48

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 09:43

Yes, he was-probably without even realising it.

I am just very, very grateful it was day time, I had the dog with me and he eventually wandered off!

I always suspect men that persistent know exactly what they're doing.

Lex345 · 23/02/2024 09:50

Catsmere · 23/02/2024 09:48

I always suspect men that persistent know exactly what they're doing.

It does make you wonder why some men take the approach of man 2 (totally fine, didnt feel at all threatened) and some think Man 1's approach is OK.

GOODCAT · 23/02/2024 09:52

Safety wise I am quite happy if anyone smiles makes a short general comment, like about the state of the roads or the weather, and remains moving on i.e most people stop or slow down to murder or harrass someone!

As someone who cycles what I do find odd is how few cyclists will even acknowledge each other. I will smile at a runner but generally don't get any reaction. That said I cycle early in the day and this time of year generally have a balaclava on so my face is mostly obscured.

Lanawashington · 23/02/2024 09:56

CyclingSam · 22/02/2024 18:27

I asked for opinions and am happy to get them, so thanks. And I can see how in some circumstances a bell can be less threatening, sadly. A small gallery of people I've met on the road thanks to the humble hello:

https://www.notanothercyclingforum.net/index.php?topic=438.msg18606#msg18606

Is this just your way of trying to get more traffic to your blog? Seeing as you keep linking itHmm

Coolstorybroh · 23/02/2024 10:06

YABU in every way

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 23/02/2024 11:04

OP - IF you are still reading! - picking up on the 'Man 1/ Man2' scenario above.

DH and I were walking on a city tow path a few weeks ago, in broad daylight. There are several paths which join the towpath, which passes a pub (open) and crosses a busy road. As is usual, there were occasional runners, cyclists and dog walkers, but one stretch of about 500 meters was deserted apart from us. A woman on her own joined the towpath, and asked if we were heading towards a particular junction. We were, and she asked if she could walk with us. She was walking to see her daughter who lived nearby, but was anxious about being on her own on the towpath, so she nearly turned back. She said she didn't used to feel this way, and apologised! It made me sad and angry, but glad we were there to help.
Are you getting it yet, OP? You trying to engage her in conversation would probably have terrified her.

blooblom · 23/02/2024 11:14

JacquesHarlow · 23/02/2024 09:44

I wonder if @CyclingSam will come back to this thread and read the lived experience of women who don’t want to be spoken to at random in public by a man, however well meaning he claims he is.

I doubt it. He doesn't want to hear the lived experience of women. He just wants to harass them and be told it's wonderful, we love it, we love him!