AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

[user666555]

Hi,

So this isn't a thread to bash anyone who has sleep trained. I'm genuinely curious of people's experiences with sleep training. I'd genuinely like to hear people's opinions especially those that have sleep trained.

A big part of my degree was child psychology focused and I learnt about the attachment theory and how children require stable attachments with their caregivers during the early years of their lives in order to go on to form secure attachments. However, I'm curious as to whether sleep training impacts this? I understand that in hindsight it's a small part of a child's life where they're being taught to self soothe. However, everything I've always been taught in relation to psychology has always focused on the importance of being present and not allowing a child to stay in distress in those early years (if you can help it, of course this isn't always possible).

So my question is, AIBU to wonder if sleep training impacts children in the long term?

Again, I'm not opposed to gentle sleep training (at an appropriate age of course) however, I've always wondered this.

P.S. I was once having a conversation with my DDs health visitor who was telling me about babies who have mums that do not tend to their cries (often due to drug abuse/abuse in general) and those babies stop crying as much. She said this isn't because the babies have soothed themselves. It's because the babies learnt that their needs won't be met by crying so they developed avoidant attachment styles as they felt as though their needs are unheard. She mentioned that work has to be done with these babies and children to allow them to rely on caregivers again - I know this isn't the same but I found this so heartbreaking.

I look forward to seeing the certificate!

There are some misinformed people on this thread - sleep training js not about not responding to small vulnerable children. And it's clearly not as simple as just a developmental thing, given all the stories of people transforming their shattered and miserable children into well-rested and happy children in the course of a few days.

You’ve described my granddaughter to a T. She was sleep trained at 6 months once she became more settled on her meds. Took about 4 nights. She now sleeps for England, and loves a good nap in the daytime too. She’s 5.

I agree - that’s why children who haven’t been taught a sleep routine struggle when they’re older.

I assure you I am not misinformed.

It’s obvious - they are meaning that their child has a set routine and those routines are precursors to signal to the brain that it’s time to sleep. They are not meaning - we throw the baby into a cold cot at 6pm and leave her there to scream herself to sleep.
Growing is a developmental thing, and along with a healthy diet, we all need quality sleep to continue to grow.

We sleep trained DT’s - what makes you believe the bond you have with your DC’s is greater?

No, it's not obvious at all and actually the pro sleep training people I encountered (including things written on mumsnet) when my first was little caused me great anxiety and stress, to the point I was becoming depressed because I felt I was doing something wrong and I had a 'difficult' baby.
Having a bedtime routine is not sleep training, nearly everyone I know has had a bedtime routine for their children including co sleepers etc. Every method I have seen of sleep training seems to ultimately boil down to a baby/toddler being able to go to sleep alone and when it wakes up it the night (which they all do sleep trained or not) go back to sleep on its own. Methods to do this do infact include putting your baby down at 6pm and letting themselves cry for hours, something I have read some pro sleep training people say they have done multiple times on mumsnet.
Of course not all sleep training is that harsh and as I said in my previous post, I totally understand if people really need to take action to get some sleep because I have been there, very little sleep trying to work etc but people who do it need to stop being so defensive and understand that actually, it's OK if others don't believe it's right for them.

We sleep trained DT’s - what makes you believe the bond you have with your DC’s is greater?

exactly

i have a brilliant bond with all my children, you’d never be able to tell the one who we ‘sleep trained’ apart from the two we didnt

in fact i know exactly which child you’d guess at and you’d be wrong 😀

Every method I have seen of sleep training seems to ultimately boil down to a baby/toddler being able to go to sleep alone and when it wakes up it the night (which they all do sleep trained or not) go back to sleep on its own

this is part of the problem on these threads, different people meaning different things

so in our case ds1 couldn’t go to sleep initially, after 3 nights he understood that being in his cot meant he needed to be asleep. Part of the problem may have been that i kept him in bed with me for a wee bit too long…poor dh slept on the floor 😀

ds1 didn’t really wake in the night but when he did we would go to him and settle him back down.

I wouldn't recommend sleep training a tiny baby for this reason. Some people say first three months are the fourth trimester and babies want to be around at all times.

As you go back to check on them they know they are not abandoned anyway. They may sound like they are abandoned but that's just theatrics. Much better for a child to know who's boss. Sleep training works fast if done properly.

Much better for a child to have a non exhausted caregiver for secure attachment. Secure attachment means child knows caregiver will come back and not be angry with them. Easier to be present and positive for a child if not exhausted.

It was the opposite for me, all the ones talking about you must be
'baby led' to be a good parent, you'll be 'nap trapped' for hours but that's just what you do to bond with your baby and how babies 'need' to co-sleep is what caused me anxiety and stress. I was relieved when I realised that it actually didn't need to be that way and certainly doesn't mean you are less bonded with your baby or don't love them as much.

No sleep training here. We respond to dd with love and warmth and understanding whenever she’s under stress.

Well, we respond with love and warmth etc to our son at bedtime. He's still an overwrought mess of emotion, bless him, and until he's been through a bit of crying with my husband, he won't actually settle down at the moment. (Four month sleep regression, so his daytime naps aren't cutting it)

We're hoping to avoid sleep training - after all, he grew out of co-sleeping naturally when he was ready at 3 months. But we'll take it into consideration once he's older if we can help him learn to sleep without getting stressed.

I also had a cmpa reflux baby - and sleep training is never going to work when they are waking up because they are in pain.

wedgehog make special reflux wedges that you can stick underneath the mattress (different sizes for different makes of cot/crib) and the slightly elevated angle can help some babies sleep as they get less reflux symptoms when gravity isn’t working against them.

Soon they will be old enough to switch to a buggy seat rather than a flat pram - which can be a game changer for buggy naps as being in that more upright position makes a big difference in how much reflux they experience. But to be honest in the early months of a reflux baby they mostly nap best with you holding them - it’s exhausting for you but they are tiny and in pain and there’s not really anything you can do to train them out of it.

If the omperazole isn’t working I’d push the gp for a pediatrics referral and maybe discuss trying a different reflux med (though omperazole is one of the better ones) or trying a different allergy milk (there are several types - some with the proteins broken down more than others which can be helpful in the case of very severe allergies). It can also take a bit of time to seem like it’s working because once their oesophagus gets really sore from severe reflux it can take a few weeks to heal and settle even once you’ve got the meds and the allergy stuff right.

Good luck - it’s hard - but they nearly all grow out of it eventually

It’s still very very early days in terms of sleep OP.

Currently I have DD2 (11 weeks with CMPA) and in the day she naps better if she naps on me. There is a lot to be said for longer day naps helping night sleep but it’s too early for a very regular patter just yet. The most predictable around this age is wanting a big nap about 90mins after they’ve woken up for the day.

With DD1 (horrendous reflux) she was a terrible day and night sleeper until we did the Jo Frost sleep method at 7.5 months. Once I had night sorted I could work on day naps and i remember putting a lot of effort into cot napping for when she started nursery age 1 year. It was only really then that she was in a 3 naps a day in cot routine.

12 weeks is still newborn sleep patterns and newborns need a lot of help to sleep. It’s too early for formal sleep training but as your baby will be starting to recognise patterns, you could introduce a bed time routine, involving fresh nappy, book and lullaby to help then distinguish bed time from naps.

At 16 weeks they will switch to a more mature sleep pattern with 40 min sleep cycles and it becomes a bit more effective.

Have you tried swaddling at night? I find this a big CMPA help with dd2.

My DC were all sleep trained at around 6 or 7 months. I have dyspraxia and lack of sleep makes me even more clumsy. I crashed the car a few times, fell down stairs carrying the baby etc. I had to sleep train for everyone else’s safety!

My DC are all in their 30s now. They are normal, independent, happy adults who have loving relationships and professional jobs. One of my DC (who is a doctor) also has dyspraxia and is currently sleep training my baby grandchild.

In the same way that we teach babies how to talk or walk, it is our job as parents to teach our DC that unbroken sleep is vital for their development and wellbeing. It’s also important that parents get enough sleep too. Good sleep habits need to be taught to babies so that they understand how to settle by themselves. Gentle sleep training from loving, attentive parents in a secure, happy family unit isn’t neglectful and I absolutely don’t believe any ‘research’ that tries to prove this.

@Bumble6
Implying that people who sleep train "leave them as such small, vulnerable children on their own and not respond to their crying" is misinformed, as PPs have pointed out.

Implying sleep training must be impossible because sleep is a developmental thing is also misinformed. There are many stories on here of parents helping their children to sleep better. You absolutely don't have to be passive about letting them suffer and risking the developmental effects of months or years of poor sleep.

A lot of people are saying that sleep training is not leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. That’s incorrect. It sometimes is exactly this!

I know multiple families who have done Cry it out ‘extinction’ method. It is not uncommon. It makes me very uncomfortable and sad. I can personally see the anxiety in their children, but can’t say that is the only cause.

there are also many other methods that are seen to be gentler where the parent is more Present.
I won’t comment on the more gentler methods because I haven’t witnessed these to know much about them.

I imagine it is extremely difficult to get clear evidence of attachment/ emotional damage either way when the methods are so varied? It’s not like it’s an even comparison.

parents have their own opinions and will vehemently stand by them on either side of the fence.

it’s what you personally feel comfortable with at the end of the day. Many parents don’t feel comfortable with any form of controlled crying where the baby is unsupported at night. That doesn’t make them weak or overprotective. Many other parents feel that they have to do something if there relationship/work/mental health is being too impacted by the lack of sleep, that they might be a better parent after the training. Some people don’t agree with the idea that the baby should have to experience the upset to make things better for the parent.

It’s all very personal and provocative really. I don’t think studies will make a difference to the opinions of most parents and I don’t think any studies can be accurate enough given how many variables there are.

Sorry but I completely diagree with you. There are many people that have posted on Mumsnet saying they have done just that in my opinion. A small baby is completely vulnerable. They cannot move themselves from where they are, they cannot feed themselves if they are hungry, they cannot get water if they are thirsty. They often suffer from reflux, wind, teething pain and other things that make them uncomfortable but of which they are unable to help themselves with. Then there are parents on Mumsnet telling people they have sleep trained their children by putting them in their cot, shutting the door and letting them 'cry it out'. To me that is leaving a small, vulnerable child to cry. If it isn't, what is it? I'm confused what that is actually supposed to teach a baby?
If you think im misinformed about that then maybe you ought to read through old sleep training posts on Mumsnet because there are plenty advocating the above.
Again, I understand that a lot of sleep training is NOT as harsh as this and I don't think there is anything wrong with people using gentle methods if it's better for both parents and babies wellbeing but there are plenty of pro sleep training people who think those sort of harsh cry it out methods are OK.
As for the OP's orignal question, presumably there isn't any long term data either way of doing things and people's own personal anecdotes are in no way evidence.

A lot of people are saying that sleep training is not leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. That’s incorrect. It sometimes is exactly this!

Sometimes it is this (very unusually, IMO). One form of sleep training is leaving your baby to cry it out for however long that takes. When people use the language of “sleep training” they do not necessarily mean what you claim they do, I certainly don’t and neither have most of the people on this thread, except the ones keen to call us selfish child abusers who should just try harder and then we too could have had the best bond. You’re the one who is incorrect.

This puts it very well. Avoid the extremes - never putting a baby down because they might cry a bit is terrible, in my view, because it will lead to parental exhaustion. But obviously a neglected baby will learn that no one comes, which will be very damaging.

With my two (now early 20s and mid teens) it was relatively easy as they both messed about either standing up in the cot laughing or whinging a bit.

I accept it’s harder if you’ve got one that moves swiftly to full on screaming and vomiting, clearly terrified.

I agree that it is the more unusual method. On any sleep training thread I've been on, it is usually the ones against sleep training who assume that is what others mean when they say sleep training.

Usually, people are talking about Ferber if any crying is involved but other than that it is definitely more gentle methods.

We did not do cry it out. We did the walking out of the room and going back in to shush - repeatedly- or with the other who was already in a bed (previously no problems sleeping but got worse around 2) taking them back to bed while saying nothing - I think this was the super nanny method. That worked well for us. Tough first night, not as bad second night, almost there third night. Wished I’d gone it weeks earlier.

But I would not do cry it out.

I imagine it is extremely difficult to get clear evidence of attachment/ emotional damage either way when the methods are so varied? It’s not like it’s an even comparison.

It's also entirely fruitless on an anecdata level, because people simply say that their children turned out "fine" or "great".

DH was an extreme premie and as such didn't get many newborn cuddles. He was just too fragile for months.

Is he great/fine? Yes. Does he have attachment issues? Also yes.

His parents literally couldn't do anything different, but when DH repeated my casual assessment of his attachment issues to MIL she was still upset/offended (quite right too, he was a right berk telling her).

And parents are all too keen to have their choices validated.

@thecatsthecats I think that's right. No one wants to do anything that will harm their baby, so it's a very emotive subject.

As a PP also mentioned, I think research is pretty much impossible on this subject as there's so many methods and degrees of sleep training. Many people, including on this thread, even claim now that cry it out "isn't sleep training", perhaps to avoid association with its harsh reputation?

@Toastcrumbsinsofa

"In the same way that we teach babies how to talk or walk"

How do you teach babies to walk or talk? Sure, you can read to them and talk to them, hold their hands to support them - but they don't start walking and talking unless they are ready to. Your baby can benefit from your support, but ultimately it's down to development. Support also requires your presence.

Babies are sponges soaking up all the information they can about the world. If you teach them you won't pick them up when they cry when they're in their cot, I'd say most will catch on eventually. As PPs have said, I don't think this will damage your bond if you're responsive and engaged the rest of the time.

Sleep training isn't a necessity though.