AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

[user666555]

Hi,

So this isn't a thread to bash anyone who has sleep trained. I'm genuinely curious of people's experiences with sleep training. I'd genuinely like to hear people's opinions especially those that have sleep trained.

A big part of my degree was child psychology focused and I learnt about the attachment theory and how children require stable attachments with their caregivers during the early years of their lives in order to go on to form secure attachments. However, I'm curious as to whether sleep training impacts this? I understand that in hindsight it's a small part of a child's life where they're being taught to self soothe. However, everything I've always been taught in relation to psychology has always focused on the importance of being present and not allowing a child to stay in distress in those early years (if you can help it, of course this isn't always possible).

So my question is, AIBU to wonder if sleep training impacts children in the long term?

Again, I'm not opposed to gentle sleep training (at an appropriate age of course) however, I've always wondered this.

P.S. I was once having a conversation with my DDs health visitor who was telling me about babies who have mums that do not tend to their cries (often due to drug abuse/abuse in general) and those babies stop crying as much. She said this isn't because the babies have soothed themselves. It's because the babies learnt that their needs won't be met by crying so they developed avoidant attachment styles as they felt as though their needs are unheard. She mentioned that work has to be done with these babies and children to allow them to rely on caregivers again - I know this isn't the same but I found this so heartbreaking.

I've read the whole thread and it seems that 95% of responses are from people who sleep trained, so I'm not quite sure it's a balanced view.

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience.

Personally, I don't see sleep as something that I can "teach" my baby to do. It's something that they do when they're developmentally ready and that's different for every single baby. There's no "walking consultants" offering their fool-proof method to get your baby on their feet in just 3 days ("my baby was so much happier once she could move around independently!").

Unless you're suggesting that everyone on here who has taught their DC to sleep better is deluded or lying, you absolutely can teach them better sleep habits. Or maybe the success stories all involve children who coincidentally became developmentally ready to sleep through just at the time they were sleep trained.

And yes, there are people who could and would get involved if a child isn't walking when they should, starting with the health visitor or GP, then maybe consultant paediatrician, physio, orthopaedics, neurology etc.

Sorry to derail the thread, but just in response to the poster that said that cosleeping is a known risk for SIDS. There’s a massive difference between safe cosleeping and unsafe cosleeping, and actually a lot of the research suggests that safe cosleeping does not increase SIDS risk (La Leche League Sweet Sleep book for references). By the same token, that would suggest that countries with higher cosleeping risks would also have higher incidence of SIDS and current information doesn’t indicate this.

In response to the original thread, I do not think that short term, gentle sleep training methods will harm a child. However, I do think the whole sleep training industry is completely unregulated and there are a lot of people with very little knowledge making a lot of money out of desperate parents.

Personally, I haven’t and don’t intend to sleep train. It’s a very Western idea - in countries where sleep training isn’t the norm (there are lots!) the majority of children seem to grow into perfectly functioning, sleeping adults so I’m not entirely sure it’s necessary. I have just adjusted my expectations of my child, one day he won’t need me in the night but for now, he does and that’s more than okay for me.

@Hughs

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience

Yes, and the vast majority of people who sleep train are of the opinion that it's absolutely fine and best for their child. I would say even the parents of the PP's niece who no longer calls out at night under any circumstances and is generally quite anxious and clingy.

I can have an opinion on sleep training without having tried it myself and reasons that I did not consider it. It's a discussion is it not?

Unless you're suggesting that everyone on here who has taught their DC to sleep better is deluded or lying, you absolutely can teach them better sleep habits. Or maybe the success stories all involve children who coincidentally became developmentally ready to sleep through just at the time they were sleep trained.

No, I am not suggesting that they are lying. I'm suggesting that "training" is unnecessary when it's something that the baby will learn in its own time if given the chance.

And yes, there are people who could and would get involved if a child isn't walking when they should, starting with the health visitor or GP, then maybe consultant paediatrician, physio, orthopaedics, neurology etc.

Exactly. Qualified medical professionals who can recognise a problem. Not someone who's done a 10-hour online course and posts advice on Instagram.

No, I am not suggesting that they are lying. I'm suggesting that "training" is unnecessary when it's something that the baby will learn in its own time if given the chance.

Not all babies learn to sleep in time themselves though. It took 6 years and a melatonin prescription for my dd to be sleep. 6 YEARS of sleep deprivation for her, that affected her so badly she was referred to the child psychiatrist.
Some children need help to sleep, it's cruel to let them suffer like I did because anti-sleep training people convinced me that sleep training was bad and harmful.

@Marfs10

I also wanted to comment on the couple of posters who said they knew babies that died of "cosleeping".

SIDS is always a tragedy, but it's misleading to suggest that cosleeping when done safely and in a planned way is more dangerous than cot sleeping.

Your opinion is that training is “unnecessary” but do you accept that some parents feel like they have no choice but to sleep train because of their own circumstances?

An interesting question is whether very poor sleep as an infant damages attachment. There’s an interesting paper entitled ‘My mother is sensitive, but I am too tired to know’ Bernier et al. 2014.

In it's own time might mean years though. I think it's unnecessary to be sleep deprived for potentially years as well as having a miserable, over tired baby when you can sleep train and everyone can be well rested as soon as possible.

I think if you're literally going to put them in a room and close the door at 6 weeks old or something, then you're probably going to end up activating the survival mechanism that makes them go silent because it's their best defence against predators if the first defence (signalling a caregiver) didn't work. And that seems likely that it would cause some kind of trauma/attachment rupture. You can see this also in the still face experiment where a caregiver deliberately stops responding to a baby. Their behaviour follows the same pattern - they try to get the caregiver's attention. They try harder. They try harder. They become distressed, and then they go quiet and seem to stop responding to anything. They are also producing a lot of stress hormones at this point. (They recover immediately as soon as the caregiver starts to respond again).

And right at the other end of the spectrum, there are some babies who are genuinely fine lying in their bed alone, and they are crying in protest at you leaving, but they fairly quickly stop, and I can't imagine that this is damaging, and I think every parent does some form of this sometimes - you know, when you strap them into the car seat or the pushchair and they complain because they would really prefer to have a cuddle 24/7 but you just leave them in the seat (maybe talking/singing to them, but equally maybe not) for a few moments while you have a wee, get your bag, keys, shoes, coat on etc. And as soon as you pick them up and start to leave the house, they're fine. I think sleep training can sometimes be like this, and I don't think this is damaging at all in the context of a loving, mostly responsive relationship.

The thing is that all the stuff you do for a secure attachment, you don't have to do all of them constantly every single minute of the day. As long as the balance is tilted in the direction of responsiveness, empathy, attention etc, it's OK. They don't need to get all of those things immediately all of the time. And even though I don't particularly like the idea of sleep training, it's likely that most sleep training that most people would attempt would easily be balanced out by the other actions that they are doing all day every day. And even in the worst case scenario, let's say it does cause harm, we know that attachment is not something especially fragile - it's stretchy and strong, and once you've built a solid foundation, you can go through some quite tough times and still come out the other side and repair the attachment. So the idea that sleep training is going to cause some deep seated trauma doesn't make any sense. I absolutely believe that it is distressing in the short term and understand that being a reason not to want to do it. But the idea that it's unique in causing some horrific rift is not logical.

I think you have to look at correlation as well - if we know that the really strict/harsh measures of sleep training are correlated with poor attachment, is that because only someone who was pretty detached from their baby anyway, or neglectful anyway (e.g. the hypothetical parent who goes on drug binges) would be likely to choose that method of dealing with overnights? And someone who has empathy for their child and feels that pull when they are upset is unlikely to even attempt that kind of thing.

I do think that the idea that you can either do Ferber (or some very close alternative) or just live with it for years is a problem, though, and all the moralising people attach to the decision to sleep train (or not) is so unhelpful.

It is possible to change sleep patterns and habits more slowly without resorting to behaviourism (which is what sleep training is - extinction) it's just a lot more work for the parent. Although I suppose this is actually still behaviourism - I'm referring to scaffolding (where you break down a goal into steps rather than trying to do the whole thing at once) or acclimatisation. You can't necessarily change the amount of times that they wake up, well other than experimenting with different nap lengths/timings during the day anyway - but you can change what happens when they wake up and therefore what they expect to happen.

And it's possible to make adjustments to sleeping arrangements so that the impact of a child's night wakings or need for proximity while sleeping are less disruptive.

I don't like this either or with no in between, and I don't like the narrative that certain things are "bad habits" or "negative associations" nor the idea that if you don't do something by a certain age it will never happen - just silly and scaremongering!

The OP was wondering whether sleep training affects attachment. Obviously someone who hasn't sleep trained wouldn't know, so it's hardly surprising that most responses come from those with experience.

I don't think this is a fair assumption because surely we're talking about something like "does smoking cause cancer?" not "Does jumping out of a tenth storey window kill you?"

There is a clear and well known link between smoking and cancer, but not every smoker will get cancer and not every cancer is caused by smoking.

Therefore, individual anecdotes about whether individual children are fine or not are not especially useful - you want to look at the research evidence, and anyone can do that, regardless of what their own personal parenting approach was.

As I understand it there has been quite a lot of research on sleep training, all of which tells us very little.

And as someone (I'm afraid I can't remember who) pointed out, if there was a very clear link either way then it would have come out in the research by now. The fact is it hasn't. So the idea that it is consistently causing terrible and severe harm is at best exaggerated and at worst deliberately manipulative.

I can give you lots of reasons why I don't like it as a practice but I think the idea that it harms attachment is overblown - there's just no evidence to support that.

A baby may learn in its own time to sleep through the night but we weren’t prepared to wait for that to happen. Babies and parents need a good nights sleep on a consistent basis particularly if you have to get up and go to work each day. Training, done in the right way is a positive.

Depends on what method...

If you leave them to cry (eg: Cry it out) and don't comfort them- yes- most probably....the first two years of life are the most important for brain development and forming a secure attachment.

If you do an approach where you aren't leaving them to cry for any length of time (ie; afew mins tops) without comfort and responsiveness, so they are secure in knowing you will go to them when they cry and offer them the comfort they need, I think its unlikely it would have any detrimental impact.

Bertiebotts- whenever I see a really well written and thoughtful post on the site, I always scroll back to check the username and it’s always you! 😊

@MrsFernsby yes they still maintain cry it out was great. They were commenting on the fact she never calls out, when my husband said (it’s his brother and wife) it’s likely down to cry it out and they said of course not, they’d use the same method with their next baby. I think it’s like a lot of things we all do with parenting, in an ideal world we would make the perfect choice, but we don’t live in an ideal world and you do what you need to make life easier. A lot of people justify doing that “thing”, whatever it is, to themselves saying it’s a brilliant thing because it makes them feel better about it (I really mean that not judgmentally as well, as I fall in that category, I’ve seen friends do it too. I think it’s generally an issue with modern families, mostly 2 parents need to work so there’s all sorts of compromises people make that they wouldn’t if their situations were different)

@Natsku I'm sorry you went through that. It sounds difficult. But if your DD needed medication to help her sleep, do you think letting her to cry (for however long) would have made a difference?

@ThisIsOk Yes, I already said that working habits and the lack of a "village" make it difficult. Sometimes untenable for many parents. That doesn't mean that sleep is something that needs taught. It means that the baby needs an extra push to adjust to your desired schedule.

"The science has been proven that it’s harmful"

References?

This. I think it's detrimental for a child to sleep train if they have poor sleep. Sleep is absolutely vital to development and good physical and mental health.

I was adopted at 8 months, not sure what life was like before then obviously but my adoptive mum said I was a great sleeper from the day she got me. But I wasn't, I regularly woke during the night, I would just stay in bed quiet. Even when I was sick I never went to find her I just stayed in bed and suffered in silence. Never really thought about it until I had my own children but I'm assuming I had just learned not to bother anyone as no one was coming. Probably an extreme viewpoint but I haven't sleep trained mine because I want them to know I will always be there when they need me. Sleepless nights are tough, I have 3 and none have been good sleepers as babies but I couldn't bring myself to sleep train.

I'm a psychologist and didn't sleep train my Dc. In fact, I threw out all those bastard books I'd relied on for my training and learned to trust myself to do things that were right by me and my baby. I do believe how you treat your child in early childhood becomes their 'normal'.

I need to add also that I'm from a non-English culture and it's very normal in our families for children to cosleep with their parents until the age of 8. Mine are luckily in their own beds now.

@mightymam I think culture can play a big part in how people view what's "normal" behaviour in babies and children. I think British culture (and I guess "Western" culture in general) really emphasises independence and getting the child not to rely on their parents as soon as possible.

Why are things such as cosleeping and longer term breastfeeding seen as bad things for kids? Why is there a need to push children away from you?

I don't think there's much scientific evidence about long term effects but I didn't do it with my previously bad sleepers as it didn't seem right to leave them as such small, vulnerable children on their own and not respond to their crying which is their only form of communication.
I can totally understand people doing it when things have got really bad and their mental health is suffering, sleep deprivation is no good for anyone then, but I fail to understand some of the comments about how they have actually 'trained' their baby to sleep when sleep is a developmental thing.

I couldn't do it. I tried it for one night. I lasted 10 minutes max. Every fibre of my being was screaming at me to go in and comfort my baby. I'm so glad that I listened to my instincts. We have the best bond.

The case against you have described - drug addicted parents never responding to children’s needs is pretty extreme and yes, I’m sure drug addicts sleep training their kids by ignoring them completely are doing a lot of harm, without doubt. But surely you can realise sleep training is a sliding scale and what the vast majority of people do as sleep training is not this? Textbooks are black and white but real life is not.

She only needed the melatonin to learn how to fall asleep without stress, once she was falling asleep regularly at a normal time we were able to stop the melatonin (she does still have trouble sometimes, she's always been a night owl and nothing could have changed that but she has the ability to fall asleep now) so I do think that some form of sleep training early on, before the problems got so bad, could have done the trick too, and avoided the years of suffering.