AIBU to wonder if sleep training negatively impacts a child (attachment theory)?

[user666555]

Hi,

So this isn't a thread to bash anyone who has sleep trained. I'm genuinely curious of people's experiences with sleep training. I'd genuinely like to hear people's opinions especially those that have sleep trained.

A big part of my degree was child psychology focused and I learnt about the attachment theory and how children require stable attachments with their caregivers during the early years of their lives in order to go on to form secure attachments. However, I'm curious as to whether sleep training impacts this? I understand that in hindsight it's a small part of a child's life where they're being taught to self soothe. However, everything I've always been taught in relation to psychology has always focused on the importance of being present and not allowing a child to stay in distress in those early years (if you can help it, of course this isn't always possible).

So my question is, AIBU to wonder if sleep training impacts children in the long term?

Again, I'm not opposed to gentle sleep training (at an appropriate age of course) however, I've always wondered this.

P.S. I was once having a conversation with my DDs health visitor who was telling me about babies who have mums that do not tend to their cries (often due to drug abuse/abuse in general) and those babies stop crying as much. She said this isn't because the babies have soothed themselves. It's because the babies learnt that their needs won't be met by crying so they developed avoidant attachment styles as they felt as though their needs are unheard. She mentioned that work has to be done with these babies and children to allow them to rely on caregivers again - I know this isn't the same but I found this so heartbreaking.

I agree, that’s why I think someone doing it for a few weeks to help the baby learn how to sleep on their own won’t really have an effect when you take into consideration the rest of the time you spend together.

Leaving them cold turkey until they are sick is the worst and not advisable I don't think anyone says this is what sleep training is, I think this is the outdated CIO method that no one uses

I was using it as the extreme end of a continuum.

Yes this is like my niece, it’s happened multiple times where she’s woken up with dried vomit on her/her bed. That’s when I think it’s gone too far, it’s not even like she’s a child who doesn’t cry much, during the day time she does a lot! Luckily I think this is the exception with sleep training, my SIL and BIL did proper cry it out at 4 months which also seems quite unusual. I’d say she’s loving and attached during the day though, it’s just night time where she’s silent!

oh sorry I missed this. I didn’t realise cry it out wasn’t sleep training, I think my sil/bil refer to it that way. Is it just its own seperate method then? And agree 4 months is too young. Anyway, it wasn’t a subject I could broach with them!

Yes, sleep consultants say they need to be at least 6 months

@TempestTost

It has to affect the kids, I really wonder if it's implicated in the attention disorders that seem so prevalent now.

It may explain the massive increase in ADHD. I hadn't really considered it. I was assuming it was iPads & too much screen time which was the issue.

Although my baby is sleep trained and we did the Ferber method, she sleeps with a monitor in her room. So there is no way that she cries and is left to it. If she cries, someone goes in and checks on her. Now we've got to the point that when she cries it's for a reason. When she goes to bed it's after her bedtime routine, bath, feed, teeth, story, cuddle and bed. She's more than ready by then to sleep and takes about 5-10min. The child waking up to dried vomit - that's something completely different.

Didn't sleep train and my kid has adhd, hardly surprising given genetics and family prevalence. Wouldn't judge anyfor sleep training, I am sure you can do it and still be attached and loving. To be honest, given that lion's eat their young and still managed to survive fine as a species, we probably have quite a lot of leeway in how we can parent without major damage.

It is a shame that history was mainly written by monks, as they didn't have any interest in documenting domestic situations and what women did in the past. Then the industrial revolution happened and with mass migration, we lost the word of mouth history in a generation.

Of mine, the one who wasn't sleep trained has ADHD, the one who was, doesn't. It's hard to see what the mechanism would be for sleep training causing the neurological differences found in ADHD.

I found DD sleeping in dried vomit once aged 2, and she also woke up like that aged 6 very confused ‘why her bed was yucky’ with no memory whatsoever of having been sick. She’d obviously just done it in her sleep. The first time turned out she also had a raging fever and tested positive for strep throat needing antibiotics. Second time it was a stomach bug. She wasn’t sleep trained, there was no need as she slept through from 8 weeks old. So I wouldn’t jump to conclusions that the kid had learned not to cry just based on that alone. Much more likely he puked in his sleep so didn’t know where it had come from.

DD2, who was not sleep trained, has thrown up twice in her sleep and not woken. The first time I heard her and went straight in - she was asleep. The second time I didn't find it until the morning, and she was sitting at one end of the cot pointing at the dry sick at the other end as if wondering who'd thrown up in her cot.
Never sleep trained, always responded to any time she woke in the night.

I don't really believe that controlled crying would make a toddler who was awake and had vomited think "no point in crying, they won't come". In controlled crying, the parent would absolutely come within a few minutes at the longest. It's not a case of saying good night and then ignoring them until morning.

DD1 was sleep trained, but she's never been sick in the night so I can't compare. But any time she does wake in the night (she's 4.5 and wakes maybe once a month) she comes in to us, as she knows we will comfort her.

I think your friend is leaving something out, this is not normal. If they are sick they still cry and you go and get them. Sleep training is literally for a couple of days, maybe two weeks maximum. You are extremely misinformed. I think you're also confused with CIO as this is the Romanina Orhphanage thing and also in context that they were probably left most of the day on their own. When a baby has a proper routine with nap length and timing done properly, they'll also sleep well at night. It's actually a bit of science regarding being overtired and undertired. A friend of mine is asleep consultant so I have learned alot from her. I think that parents should just do what they are comfortable with, I do find it surprising the parents who are so against sleep training but then cosleep given the known risk of SIDs. My friends baby died from this so I would never cosleep. We all make different choices based on what we are willing to risk and what we think is best for our baby

Sleep training is a far better option than parents and children who can barely function through lack of sleep.

From the sound of your parenting style I recommend you look up 'heysleepybaby' on instagram, very supportive with real sleep expectations appropriate to age x

Sleep training is not your issue here OP!
The CMPA is!
Both of mine had it with different symptoms to each other - I spent 5 months of DS1 screaming and GPs prescribing loads of reflux meds which didn’t work and no one believed me that he was in pain, not pooing for days and then exploding along with throwing everything up all of the time. I was at the end of my tether when a health visitor found me crying at the weigh in clinic and asked about the smell of his breastfed poo and then called my GP and demanded they prescribe Nutramigen.
24 hours later I had a new baby and a few weeks later he slept through!
We did sleep train after that gently when needed but there was no point when he was in pain.

DS2 wasn’t putting on weight, diarrhoea constantly and silent reflux. I went to GP on day 6 and said he was in pain with wind too and for my health I needed Nutramigen again. GP awful but as soon as I mentioned mental health she gave it. Then midwives finally sent us to paediatrician (like it was a threat because he wasn’t putting on weight even though every appointment I was telling them about the diarrhoea). I was told not to go back to BF (I was pumping while trying to get all the dairy out of my system while he began the formula) and they prescribed Neocate - problem solved and was under dietician. Saw her and mentioned the wind he was left with and she said all good bacteria would have been wiped by the diarrhoea and she prescribed neocate syneo which has a probiotic in.

It can be really tough having CMPA babies but just know you’re not going mad and keep fighting!

Baby reflux can often be caused by an insufficiently developed aesophegeal sphincter. Which means the acid just rises up their throat. Does the baby relax and settle after a while if upright (we used to use a sling- good thing it was a summer baby I tell you).

Our GP recommended putting books under one end of the crib so she would be at a slant. He did say 45 degrees but we weren’t comfortable with that so she slept on around a 15 degree slope. That + omeprazole sorted it, and then we sleep trained her once the reflux was under control. Keep pushing for the care you and the baby need. They are right, your baby WILL grow out of it, but that doesn’t mean you can’t do something now to help.

My thought is actually that there are quite a lot of children who don't have ADHD, what they have is severe sleep deprivation.

I used old-school ‘cry it out’ with DD. After a tricky few weeks she became a great sleeper and a very happy little girl! We have a very close bond to this day. I suspect there are many different factors in forming / breaking attachment and sleep is only one of them.

You definitely need to deal with the CMPA and reflux pain before you can think about sleep training. I would keep going back to the GP about changing the milk because its clearly not working. Your poor baby, and poor you.

This is interesting DS ( born 2004) was a Gina Ford baby. He was never left to cry ( well once aged 6 weeks for 5 minutes- very overtired). But was always put to sleep in his own cot/ moses basketfrom birth. So if/when he fell asleep after a feed I always put him down in his moses basket. He slept 7 hours @ 8 weeks, is that sleep training ? All happenedca long time before 6 months. Of course when he occasionally at night I would go to him and usually breastfeed him, but it was v. rare after 10 weeks or so.

I think it's more before 6 months you're not meant to leave them to cry as perhaps they're not necessarily ready to be left, but honestly I never asked why. I just remember anything younger than 6 months is meant to be too young. I also don't think what you were doing was necessarily sleep training as you just had a baby that easily slept, I actually did too until the 8 month regression. Mine I'd just put in his bassinet or cot and he'd play for a bit then fall asleep. Would also just wake to him happily playing too. No crying, no fuss. Until 8 months then it was all over 😅

I'm in my 40s and most kids in my generation were sleep trained and most of us still love our parents and aren't psychologically damaged.

I sleep trained mine, the second time at 7 months. My youngest was waking up 7x a night for 7 months. They were like a different baby afterwards - happier, more alert, actually ate some food in the day because they weren't full from grazing all night. The important things for me were -

They were NOT left alone for hours to cry it out, which is what a lot of people think about sleep training. We did the disappearing chair method so were right next to them, soothing them, just didn't pick them up

Babies every cry isn't a need. Sometimes it is boredom and sometimes they feed to sleep because it's comforting and because its habit, not because they 'need' to do this

Most importantly if the baby was ill and cried longer than normal or at a time we weren't expecting, we did go back in and pick up / put them in bed with us. The narrative that the baby will no longer cry because 'they've learned no one comes' is in my opinion and experience, complete bullshit, unless they have been properly neglected. At night they just learn that they aren't going to be picked up or fed just for the sake of it

We sleep trained my first accidentally...I did my back in, and my husband had to go and get the baby and bring them to me. He would try and sooth them a bit first but if they didn't fall straight back asleep would bring them in for a feed. 3 days later they were sleep trained

The child waking up to dried vomit - it is possible for a child to be in a deep sleep and vomit without waking up properly (deeper sleep at the start of the sleep cycle for example which would tie in with it being dried up). I think it's a bit of a stretch to jump to Romanian orphanage comparisons which involve complete neglect

After we had sleep trained, the baby was getting 6 hours more sleep per 24 hours than he did before training.

Six more hours sleep per 24 hours is a huge amount!!

Sleep is so important for babies to grow and develop properly, and just like humans, they need to be rested.

As well as getting 6 hours more sleep every day, my baby was also much happier and settled after the training. Life was pleasant again for him and me.