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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What does your network think about trans people?

1000 replies

deeter · 16/02/2024 19:33

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2024 20:20

However, they're perfectly happy to use 'she' for a trans woman and, I think, are pretty unhappy about some of the hate they see amongst some sections of feminism.

Really? That's the thing that makes them most unhappy?

Not the actions of 'transwomen' in infiltrating women's spaces and abusing them? The Katie Dolatowski's, Barbie Khardashian's, Lia Thomas's?

Not the TRAs who have sent GC women death threats, rape threats and called for their decapitation?

Extraordinary

EasternStandard · 17/02/2024 20:22

Flamme · 17/02/2024 19:23

Mostly my network has a live and let live attitude. They tend to agree that transwomen shouldn't be in places like rape crisis centres and women's changing rooms, and also shouldn't be allowed to take part in women's sport, and they don't go along with stuff like saying men can have periods. However, they're perfectly happy to use 'she' for a trans woman and, I think, are pretty unhappy about some of the hate they see amongst some sections of feminism.

I don’t see much in your views and the ones on here from others who want single sex stuff

And the ‘hate’ is mostly aimed at women not giving consent

mirandathemagpie · 17/02/2024 20:45

Most of my network doesn't think about it, or they are of the "be kind" ilk. There is occasionally a joke about things identifying as something else....I get the feeling people would probably say more after a couple of wines....

I have a friend (male) who is what I would call pro trans, and we have had disagreements about womens rights to womens only spaces before (he thinks transwomen are vulnerable so should have access to womens toilets).

I am on a couple of facebook parenting groups and you cannot voice your concerns about children transitioning EVER. If someone says little Tommy (4) likes dresses and dolls, then discussion immediately goes to supporting him to become a girl and anyone who suggests this is normal childhood play is shot down.

Facebook groups are weird though. A couple of months ago I saw one particular one being recommended to help with sex education, so I thought I would join it, given that I have a pre-teen. "that parent group (with Cath Hakanson)" is truly shocking and "inclusive" to the extreme. They tell parents that there is no such thing as a male or female puberty. You should tell your children that "people with uteruses" experience x, while never explaining how 9 year old children are meant to know who has a uterus. They tell parents that puberty blockers are reversible (they are not). There are nonbinary people (women) raising their children without a gender, intending to let them choose. All of this is quite harmful, and it truly does not fit with "be kind".

OnceinaMinion · 17/02/2024 21:03

When someone in DHs work transitioned it was very clear how they felt about it. None of them viewed them as a woman, zero, no debate. They were nice to his face and used his new name but no one thought he changed sex. The very few women in his work were very clear he was not to come into their single bathroom (there are several male toilets).
He had the full surgery etc, but within a year was living as a man again, when he realised he wasn’t actually a woman. Sold a lie. Destroyed his body as he had a whole load of people pushing him to do it.

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 21:31

OnceinaMinion · 17/02/2024 21:03

When someone in DHs work transitioned it was very clear how they felt about it. None of them viewed them as a woman, zero, no debate. They were nice to his face and used his new name but no one thought he changed sex. The very few women in his work were very clear he was not to come into their single bathroom (there are several male toilets).
He had the full surgery etc, but within a year was living as a man again, when he realised he wasn’t actually a woman. Sold a lie. Destroyed his body as he had a whole load of people pushing him to do it.

It is very sad to hear about the bodies which have been harmed in people seeking this impossibility. Last year a book was released by Dr Az Hakeem where he stated :

'He said 26 per cent of his patients at the Tavistock and Portman regretted transitioning.'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

Of course, this statistic should not be taken as 'detransition' numbers. Because many trans people experience regret but feel they have to continue as they have made these changes and feel they have to stay in that gender. However, we also hear this from detransitioners. That they detransition once they realise that they will never be what they want to be. They also state that the full affirmation that they had got and all the encouragement they get gives them a false sense that surgery will deliver unrealistic results. But then it finally hits them that they will never be that and regret their treatment.

We had a male poster who told us about their journey through this. Also this poster had 'aged' and realised that as they aged they passed less. And reality seeped in.

I have links to studies for the cohort who transitioned before 2017 there was evidence of a detransition rate between 8.2% and 8.8%. Plus a paper that showed similar results. That is after medical treatment. Desistance rates were much higher - ie. when no medical treatment has been undertaken and the patient simply decides they are not trans anymore.

The issue is that there seems to be unrealistic expectations and not enough discussion of the negative outcomes.

A major issue is that at all stages of treatment, those receiving that treatment move from having a healthy body to various degrees of being a patient for life. Some of them will suffer life limiting or life shortening negative side effects due to these affirming treatments. The regret also seems to include that they may have a future of health issues when they had a healthy body before treatment.

What feminists know but others may not, is that the impacts of hormones and surgeries on the female body is brutal. And rarely discussed. And now seems to be glamourised whenever it is possible. This is incredibly harmful.

We risk raising nation of chemically castrated kids, says Tavistock Dr

EXCLUSIVE: Dr Az Hakeem (pictured) worked at the Tavistock and Portman Foundation Trust for 12 years and is the author of Detrans: When Transition Is Not The Solution.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12623643/Being-trans-non-binary-new-sub-culture-risk-raising-nation-chemically-castrated-children-Doctor-spent-12-years-working-vulnerable-teens-Tavistock-warns-gender-ideology.html

Isitbedtimeyet3 · 17/02/2024 22:05

We don’t understand why it isn’t treated as a mental illness.

putting on a dress doesn’t make you a woman anymore then doing a few squats and getting some botox makes me a Kardashian

and people who are allowing this in small children are sick in the head.

if I wanted to identify as an African woman, I would be told (as a white woman) that I can’t do that. So why do people think they can change their sex? You’re either a man or a woman from birth and that’s it.

I have 0 tolerance for it but it’s also not ok in my religion either

PermanentTemporary · 17/02/2024 23:12

Desistance is very high, yes. Worked in a service for trans people and we got quite a lot of desistance calls. Married a desister (i do accept people restart transition but lots don't as well). I wish there was better tracking of reality and how and when male and female people start and stop transition, and the differences in their experience, preferably without language designed to make subjects' sex difficult to work out.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 06:19

Isitbedtimeyet3 · 17/02/2024 22:05

We don’t understand why it isn’t treated as a mental illness.

putting on a dress doesn’t make you a woman anymore then doing a few squats and getting some botox makes me a Kardashian

and people who are allowing this in small children are sick in the head.

if I wanted to identify as an African woman, I would be told (as a white woman) that I can’t do that. So why do people think they can change their sex? You’re either a man or a woman from birth and that’s it.

I have 0 tolerance for it but it’s also not ok in my religion either

I suspect many people who have been following the ideological aspect of transgender rights will have a great idea why it is no longer treated as a mental illness and exactly who benefits from that. If I wrote it all out in a post, I suspect it would be deleted.

It was fully treated as a mental illness previously. Trans people worked very hard to have being transgender destigmatised. So now, there is this position where being transgender cannot be said to be a mental illness nor treated as other body dysmorphias are, because to treat it that way may mean a patient will no longer feel they are transgender and the trans community think that is conversion therapy.

There was also the ethical issue of treating this group with irreversible physical modifications for a mental health issue. And for that to be funded by the NHS.

At the moment, there is plenty of emotive discussion about conversion therapy being banned. And true conversion therapy should be banned. However, for LGB people, there are already laws in the UK banning it. In countries where bans that now include transgender conversion therapy bans have been recently put in place, exploratory therapy that challenges whether a patient is transgender and that doesn’t immediately affirm that persons gender from the start has been considered conversion therapy.

In the UK, the law is in discussion because it needs to be carefully worded so that parents sending their child to a therapist that explores exactly why that child suddenly feels dysphoric and doesn’t immediately affirm this gender identity don’t face prison. And that the clinicians doing exploratory therapy are not targeted.

What is very clear is that people who believe they are the opposite or no sex have a very high rate of comorbid conditions. Conditions such as those under the grouping of neuro diverse, conditions that are due to trauma, depression, anxiety, personality disorders, learning difficulties etc. And often more than one comorbid condition. For instance, children who are in care situations seem to have a much higher prevalence of being transgender. This all needs to be explored and has been ignored by trans support groups. It is beginning to be discussed though thanks to Dr Cass and her interim report.

Another major issue that has been exposed is that many, and disproportionately, people with transgender identities are same sex or both sex attracted. And it needs careful exploration to understand if homophobia or biphobia is a cause of this belief that a person is transgender.

I, personally, consider the detaching of being transgender from being a mental health issue is reducing the quality of care that children and adolescents receive.

It also leaves children open to abuse because there really are parents who seem overly invested in their children being transgender. The previous CEO of Mermaids, Suzie Green, notoriously said that her husband was scared their little boy was gay because Jackie like to dress up and play with dolls. For Jackie’s 16th birthday she took Jackie to Thailand to have Jackie’s penis inverted. Readers should look this up for themselves.

Once you start to pull one thread, it leads you to unraveling more.

This report from Denton’s provides quite a bit of background to the political maneuvering that we have seen and we see today. It lays out political strategies. It is a very concerning document that has been pulled from the internet except for this website.

https://gendercriticalwoman.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/iglyo_v3-1-2.pdf

Again, the question to be asked here is who benefits from a lower standard of health care for people who are declaring they are trans? Including all the organisations, not just the individuals.

Just a final note, I don’t believe people should be stigmatised at all for declaring they are transgender. But in detaching it from mental health aspects has caused major issues to the quality of care.

https://gendercriticalwoman.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/iglyo_v3-1-2.pdf

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 06:27

For any people reading who want to read resources about all this, I recommend sites like

Transgender Trend: https://www.transgendertrend.com/

SEGM: https://segm.org/

Books :

Trans by Helen Joyce

Irreversible Damage by Abigail Shrier

Material Girls by Kathleen Stock

Hannah Barnes A Time To Think

Detrans By Dr Az Hakeem

Transgender Trend - Who Are We? - Transgender Trend

Transgender Trend is a UK organisation advocating for evidence-based care of gender dysphoric children and science-based teaching in schools.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/

Ramalangadingdong · 18/02/2024 06:37

Most of the people I know would probably quote the mantra twaw and I would also once have thought this but lately I have been feeling very differently. I think it started when I watched a stupid reality show which featured a trans woman whose idea of what it means to be a woman was big boobs, a pout and nice frocks - it was offensive. That started me thinking. I am part of an online women only group therapy - only it isn’t women only because there are trans women in there some of whom look and sound like men. They insist on taking part in the group but aren’t even dressed like women but who are there because they say they are women. I find it really unnerving g and find it difficult to open up there because the point of the group is for women who have experienced trauma. And then they will discuss topics that women can’t really relate to and don’t want to listen to regarding intimate surgery. I think they should have their own spaces. I can’t u understand why they wouldn’t want that.

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 07:15

Ramalangadingdong · 18/02/2024 06:37

Most of the people I know would probably quote the mantra twaw and I would also once have thought this but lately I have been feeling very differently. I think it started when I watched a stupid reality show which featured a trans woman whose idea of what it means to be a woman was big boobs, a pout and nice frocks - it was offensive. That started me thinking. I am part of an online women only group therapy - only it isn’t women only because there are trans women in there some of whom look and sound like men. They insist on taking part in the group but aren’t even dressed like women but who are there because they say they are women. I find it really unnerving g and find it difficult to open up there because the point of the group is for women who have experienced trauma. And then they will discuss topics that women can’t really relate to and don’t want to listen to regarding intimate surgery. I think they should have their own spaces. I can’t u understand why they wouldn’t want that.

You are absolutely right that those make people have very unique needs and would benefit from having their own group.

It is a well discussed fact that many female people will not be comfortable discussing intimate details with male people in a group. And this impedes therapy. This has been widely discussed because of the actions of a male transgender CEO of the Edinburgh rape crisis centre, Mridul Wadhwa.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990452-mridul-wadhwa-transwoman-ceo-of-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

However, I am also sorry to say, that there may be many other reasons for those male people to be in that group. An obvious reason is there are a range of paraphilias that some male people find arousing. And one that involves listening to women’s trauma. There are others that involve things that women in those groups discuss and them being there allows them to gather together your descriptions for their use in their sexual fantasy.

To be blunt, that would also be an explanation as to why they are discussing their surgeries too. They may be genuine. But they may be using your group for other reasons. And also the surgeries may or may not be real.

Another example of this are male people who demand inclusion into breastfeeding groups. There was a case of a male person who was being part of mothers support groups for still births while simulating a pregnancy and still birth delivery.

It could also be validation that they are using the group for. When they are in that group they are validated as ‘women’, just by being in that group.

As I say, the male people in your group may be genuinely there for support. They may feel they cannot speak about it in a trans group, they might be rejected there although that would surprise me. I suspect though, it is the female group aspect that is important to them for various reasons. I am sorry that your group is not working for you.

Mridul Wadhwa, transwoman CEO of Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre | Mumsnet

Mridul Wadhwa is in the news again. For those of us in Scotland this has been ongoing for the past few years, but it seems we could use a thread to...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4990452-mridul-wadhwa-transwoman-ceo-of-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre

StealthMama · 18/02/2024 07:35

Ramalangadingdong · 18/02/2024 06:37

Most of the people I know would probably quote the mantra twaw and I would also once have thought this but lately I have been feeling very differently. I think it started when I watched a stupid reality show which featured a trans woman whose idea of what it means to be a woman was big boobs, a pout and nice frocks - it was offensive. That started me thinking. I am part of an online women only group therapy - only it isn’t women only because there are trans women in there some of whom look and sound like men. They insist on taking part in the group but aren’t even dressed like women but who are there because they say they are women. I find it really unnerving g and find it difficult to open up there because the point of the group is for women who have experienced trauma. And then they will discuss topics that women can’t really relate to and don’t want to listen to regarding intimate surgery. I think they should have their own spaces. I can’t u understand why they wouldn’t want that.

It's really saddens me to read this. Have you discussed with the group leader? Or considered other groups you can join?

If they have let them in then chances are you'll be a bigot for complaining, but protecting yourself is what's most important here.

🌷 for you

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 07:53

Flamme · 17/02/2024 19:23

Mostly my network has a live and let live attitude. They tend to agree that transwomen shouldn't be in places like rape crisis centres and women's changing rooms, and also shouldn't be allowed to take part in women's sport, and they don't go along with stuff like saying men can have periods. However, they're perfectly happy to use 'she' for a trans woman and, I think, are pretty unhappy about some of the hate they see amongst some sections of feminism.

And who do you think is fighting for women's spaces and sports, exactly? Who do you think saw all this coming when most people still thought that transwomen had to have surgery before they could call themselves women?

Very convenient for people to say "Live and let live! I am lovely and inclusive - don't listen to all these nasty feminists! But also, no transwomen in women's sports or spaces!" How nice of all those "hateful" feminists to be doing all the heavy lifting for them.

EasternStandard · 18/02/2024 07:54

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 07:53

And who do you think is fighting for women's spaces and sports, exactly? Who do you think saw all this coming when most people still thought that transwomen had to have surgery before they could call themselves women?

Very convenient for people to say "Live and let live! I am lovely and inclusive - don't listen to all these nasty feminists! But also, no transwomen in women's sports or spaces!" How nice of all those "hateful" feminists to be doing all the heavy lifting for them.

Yes it really is something

Helleofabore · 18/02/2024 08:09

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 07:53

And who do you think is fighting for women's spaces and sports, exactly? Who do you think saw all this coming when most people still thought that transwomen had to have surgery before they could call themselves women?

Very convenient for people to say "Live and let live! I am lovely and inclusive - don't listen to all these nasty feminists! But also, no transwomen in women's sports or spaces!" How nice of all those "hateful" feminists to be doing all the heavy lifting for them.

I suspect that it never occurs to the people who say these things.

It is like those who make comment about how ‘obsessed’ people are while saying they want the things those ‘obsessed’ people achieve. It is remarkable that they haven’t connected the dots. That if you want something where there is pressure to remove it, ie single sex spaces, then someone has to do the work.

Framing those who are doing the work as obsessed, nasty, unkind whatever, while you, a general you, are doing nothing is you enjoying a privileged position of doing nothing. Not having to get involved while still being able to maintain that ‘live and let live’ position.

However, there will always be those people who disagree or who will believe they could do better while doing nothing. All women can do is keep working to enact the changes we and others need.

TheKeatingFive · 18/02/2024 08:37

In the UK, the law is in discussion because it needs to be carefully worded so that parents sending their child to a therapist that explores exactly why that child suddenly feels dysphoric and doesn’t immediately affirm this gender identity don’t face prison.

Not directly related to this, but just so people are aware ...

There are parts of the US and Australia where, if your child is gender questioning and the medics advise puberty blockers, and you withhold permission, custody of that child can be taken from you. This is already happening to families.

I find this really chilling. Especially given that the long term effects of puberty blockers are not understood

TinytinyAlison · 18/02/2024 10:42

It makes intensely sad to see so many easily manipulated by Daily Mail clickbait. Transwomen in toilets? This is absolutely a statistical nonissue compared to all of the violence and injustice we face. Direct your energy to the real problems and challenges facing women. I really can't shout this loud enough. You are being manipulated in ways the feed on the unhappiness and dissatisfaction with your life.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/02/2024 10:48

Oh well that’s me convinced 🙄we’re just being silly billy wims

want to rebut any of the actual evidence & arguments or is this just a drive by scolding?

YetAnotherSpartacus · 18/02/2024 10:53

This is absolutely a statistical nonissue compared to all of the violence and injustice we face.

Who is 'we', exactly?

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 10:54

Flamme · 17/02/2024 19:23

Mostly my network has a live and let live attitude. They tend to agree that transwomen shouldn't be in places like rape crisis centres and women's changing rooms, and also shouldn't be allowed to take part in women's sport, and they don't go along with stuff like saying men can have periods. However, they're perfectly happy to use 'she' for a trans woman and, I think, are pretty unhappy about some of the hate they see amongst some sections of feminism.

This has got me really angry actually.

Do you realise how many "hateful" feminists had to stick their heads above the parapet in order for you and your lovely "live and let live" friends to "tend to agree that transwomen shouldn't be in places like rape crisis centres and women's changing rooms, and also shouldn't be allowed to take part in women's sport, and they don't go along with stuff like saying men can have periods"?

How many women were trolled, doxed, abused online, had to go to court to establish protection for your GC belief?

How many people and places - including Mumsnet - were sued by TRAs for allowing your freedom of expression that transwomen are not, actually, women?

Do you realise how many gatherings of women have been cancelled, banned, and protested at? How many professors have been cancelled? Lawyers who have been sacked? Journalists who had to leave their publications? All for trying to establish what you now think is "live and let live".

You are standing on the shoulders of giants. And you call them "hateful" 😡

ToRecordOnlyWater · 18/02/2024 10:59

Through the music scenes I have spent time in for the past ten years, I have come to have quite a big circle of trans and gender non-conforming friends. One of my friends from high school (who was out as a gay male when I first knew her, she was a couple of years above me) came out in Year 11 as trans and my parents were fantastic and our home became a bit of a safe refuge for her from her abusive and unsupportive home life. My parents aren’t particularly progressive or liberal, but they grasped the concept really quickly of my friend’s name change and was so proud of them, when so many don’t even bother to try. The way I see trans people (trans women in particular) painted as evil perverts so often online is just so alien to me, I have known many over the years and called them friends - and that such a a large, loud proportion of the internet would assume they are doing it for a sexual thrill or to make afab women uncomfortable is just bizarre. And screams ‘I’ve never met an actual trans person in real life but read a lot of shit online and it must all be true’

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 11:02

Brave women such as Sharron Davies and Martina Navratilova have stood up over and over and said transwomen shouldn't be women's sport - and have been constantly abused, trolled, threatened so that people like @Flamme can go "Oh yeah, live and live, but of course transwomen shouldn't be in women's sport" 😡

GreenAppleCrumble · 18/02/2024 11:04

LoveAHamSandwhich · 18/02/2024 10:54

This has got me really angry actually.

Do you realise how many "hateful" feminists had to stick their heads above the parapet in order for you and your lovely "live and let live" friends to "tend to agree that transwomen shouldn't be in places like rape crisis centres and women's changing rooms, and also shouldn't be allowed to take part in women's sport, and they don't go along with stuff like saying men can have periods"?

How many women were trolled, doxed, abused online, had to go to court to establish protection for your GC belief?

How many people and places - including Mumsnet - were sued by TRAs for allowing your freedom of expression that transwomen are not, actually, women?

Do you realise how many gatherings of women have been cancelled, banned, and protested at? How many professors have been cancelled? Lawyers who have been sacked? Journalists who had to leave their publications? All for trying to establish what you now think is "live and let live".

You are standing on the shoulders of giants. And you call them "hateful" 😡

Absolutely fantastic post. Nail on the head.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 18/02/2024 11:06

Bang on @LoveAHamSandwhich

GreenAppleCrumble · 18/02/2024 11:06

TinytinyAlison · 18/02/2024 10:42

It makes intensely sad to see so many easily manipulated by Daily Mail clickbait. Transwomen in toilets? This is absolutely a statistical nonissue compared to all of the violence and injustice we face. Direct your energy to the real problems and challenges facing women. I really can't shout this loud enough. You are being manipulated in ways the feed on the unhappiness and dissatisfaction with your life.

Engage with the actual points and you might, you know, make a point.

As it stands, this is just empty, emotive whataboutery. No one with half a brain is falling for it.

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