What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

Most of my friendship circle would fall into a default TWAW camp and there's a few that are varying degrees of GC

Among friends it ranges a lot. Mostly it is complete silence which perhaps signals unawareness or reluctance to engage with something they think only happens to other people (most of them are middle class professional straight couples who are totally unpolitical and whose lives revolve around young children, family and professions that don't involve safeguarding). A subset who are political and identify as on the liberal left (particularly those who work in academia or are gay) buy into TWAW very heavily.

The only ones who voice anything critical about trans issues without prompting are teachers. On the whole they are extremely gender critical and have all come across cases of pupils identifying as trans, apart from one who teaches in a 'rough' (putting it mildly) white working class area. They are very clear that they are seeing a social phenomenon. One is a bit 'let's all be nice' but teaches in a primary so is less exposed to the practical consequences. Many of them have clearly brushed up on the issues - I was gobsmacked when some of them started talking totally unprompted about Alison Bailey's employment case, as you could not imagine people less political or further removed from Alison's world!

Family are all instinctively gender critical but haven't seen a lot of practical consequences of TWAW so are not really fired up about it. The only thing that has really cut through to them is JK Rowling and how activists have treated her - they have exactly the same position as her, and are completely appalled by the vitriol aimed at her. But by and large they do not understand the extremism of the radical trans position, and the extent to which it has captured policy and political parties.

Can you understand what eyeballs is saying here?

If a male person can only ever be a male person who has shaped their life to resemble what they perceive or want the the label 'woman' to be, that by definition is a 'fantasy'. Do you understand the inherent logic of this? No human can be something that they are materially not. They can however, act and present in a way that they perceive that thing they want to be known as acts and presents. And only that emulation.

For instance, I could not be a male person. No matter how I tried or what modifications I did. I could not ever understand what it means to be a male person EXCEPT from the perceptions that I have built up over my life. I would use these things I have learned through observation and discussion to emulate being a male person. But I am NOT a male person.

Some people feel that a person who has insisted that their perception of being female should be respected and that they should be treated as being 'female'. You seem to be wish to respect that desire from that person. Do you understand though why other people might not respect a person who insists that they have become female and emulated what they believe is a female in their presentation and behaviour?

Your respect seems to only go one way. Your respect seems to only go towards supporting a male who is presenting and acting as they believe a female would present and act. That is fine. But why do you not allow others to make up their own minds as to whether they feel is this appropriate behaviour to be 'respected' or not?

Surely that would be authoritarian to insist that everyone accept that 'female' means anything that a male person insists is how a female acts and presents and lives?

If a bloke called Steve wants to wear a dress and call himself Stephanie, let me crack on. Not doing me any harm.

If a bloke called Steve wants to use a female changing room then I'm not comfortable with that. If I'm standing in a place half naked I don't want a bloke looking at me, and I don't want to see his dick if he's getting changed next to me.

Absolutely fine. Totally bewildered about all the shit they get. No problem at all, and not a problem for me either.

It depends on how we define respect, doesn't it?

I can't recall who said it but there's a line about respect sometimes meaning being treated like a person, and sometimes meaning being treated like an authority.

Trans people should be treated like people and not harassed or abused. I'd hope we can all agree on that.
Trans people should not be treated like an authority when they demand transwomen in women's spaces, compulsory pronoun use, everyone in workplaces parroting the TWAW line, etc.

I do believe people feel they are born in the wrong body. Being able to present themselves where there feel (others might not agree) the are seen as the opposite sex and treated as the opposite sex may validate how they feel and accept themselves

that is different from Steven wearing some eye shadow and a blouse borrowed from his sister because it’s fashionable or me wearing an outfit that also a boyfriend might be wearing (jeans, jumper, timberland boots) because I like it and it’s comfortable

it’s also different to a man/woman dressing up to make themselves look to some extent to opposite sec because it’s a sexual fetish

Bring a trans person is complex it’s not just about clothing it’s about how they feel about their body, how they feel they are in the wrong body, how they feel others mistake who they are and misjudge who they are, how society puts them into a box that is not right for them

the others are not complex, fashion, comfortable wear and sexual kink/fetish whatever it’s called now

Can you articulate why society should allow someone to persist in feeling they have the wrong body? Why this group and not other groups? Why is gender so different from say, age?

And secondly, how do you tell the difference between a fetishist and a non-fetishist? Particularly for safe guarding. Do you think that today, even clinicians who have very little contact with this male people can tell the difference reliably?

Most of my friends think that the whole trans issue has been blown out of all proportion and has become a political pawn. The right wing press have latched on to it in the same way they have with immigration. Be afraid, be very afraid, these people eat babies and will destroy our way of life. It's a distraction from the real shit that is destroying every level of this country like child poverty, corrupt police, no dentists, people dying in hospital corridors. The worst thing is that it's working, women are spending more time worrying about this one issue than the gazillion horrors that are actually going to affect their day to day lives and their children's futures in a major way.

Because I believe society should accept that many people have mh conditions that make life very difficult for them and try to support them as much as possible so their life feels validated

I do not feel people with schizophrenia should just ignore the voices they hear or people with eating disorders should just stop making themselves sick or force themselves to eat more

How do we know what is a fetish and what isn’t I don’t know

regarding single sex spaces I have already mentioned this in above post

I don’t need to know about people’s internal feelings in order to avoid shaming them for their clothing choices. And thankfully people encountering me are equally accommodating and polite.

Feeling you’re born in the wrong body must be troubling, but ultimately it’s subjective. I think it’s probably quite self-absorbed to want to project one’s feelings onto those around us. Why do people need to know how I’m feeling? That said, it’s very human, being worried about how we’re perceived. And often quite painful.

But we all have a choice in how we behave once we step out the front door, ie respect, politeness, listening etc. (Sometimes that’s a pretty tall order when the washing machine is on the blink!)

Except, of course, those parents who are dealing with the impacts that directly effect their children's futures.

Just because you and most of your friends don't seem to have had this impact them, doesn't mean that it is ok for you to dismiss other people's priorities based on their own needs.

Fair enough. Could you explain those impacts so I am better informed.

Be afraid, be very afraid, these people eat babies and will destroy our way of life.

This seems an extremely odd thing to say as no one has mentioned anything like this.

This thread has however, outlined in depth the impact on women who need single sex spaces, single sex care, the effect on women's sports and the concerns around teenagers doing irrevocable harm to their growing bodies.

Except that you have now positioned being trans as being a mental health issue. We have been told very clearly that this is offensive and untrue (of course, it is up to us as individuals to evaluate this insistence). There is also evidence from young people that they are now adopting being trans as a life style choice. This is what has been said by some of them on tik tok. They are very clear that they do not have gender dysphoria.

It is complex. I agree.

So if you think that people with eating disorders should be helped to help themselves and that that help does not involve validating their insistence that they are overweight. Do you then think that someone who feels they are 'born in the wrong body' should be left to believe that they are born in the wrong body and that making permanent changes to that body is going to help them?

Do you see the inconsistency between the two here?

I don't think a 4000% increase of young girls being referred to the Gender Clinic is political pawn.

It's a medical and social scandal of our time.

Our tweens and teens are living in a society where they would rather be boys.

Why?

I firmly believe I am trapped in the wrong body. I very much want to have the body of any of the Victoria Secret's models (not picky). Can I get extensive plastic surgery on the NHS to help me inhabit the body I truly believe I belong in?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/feb/17/toxic-online-culture-fuelling-rise-in-sexual-assualts-on-children-by-other-children-police-warn

i wonder what sex the victims generally are - the article doesn’t say but you know I think we can guess

I think there’s a real mix within my family and friends.

a lot totally accept, respect any gender identity. Call people by their preferred pronoun etc.

some go along with it and are polite but clearly don’t “get it” and think it’s a bit silly.

a couple just outright say they think it’s nonsense and won’t engage in it. Wouldn’t call a trans person by their self-identified gender or name etc.

it’s a mix.

Hmm, are you a man that wants to look like a VS model? Then yes! go be stunning and brave!

If you are a woman, be body positive and own the body you inhabit as your own! Embrace it, you are loved as you are!

Eh?

You’re on a MN thread suggesting that women aren’t aware of child poverty (many of us are mothers, some go to food banks), police corruption (most rape crimes don’t even make it to court), dentist appointments (yes, kids have teeth), hospitals (most people have had an elderly/sick relative).

Just because women are multi-tasking all the time doesn’t mean we can’t have opinions 😂

As the OP asks about 'network', I'd say that on the whole they're very accepting and respectful towards transgender individuals. Some are more vocally TWAW and express disapproval of high profile GC people like JKR, whereas milder types can't really see why on earth her views are being equated with extremist hatred and bigotry.
On the other hand, there's not much understanding of big beardy Dave rocking up and insisting on the right to play on the women's rugby team because he's Debbie this week. So I suppose people I know want to see evidence of commitment!

There are quite a number of people who will disregard all of the above though in order to stop a political party taking power if their views on trans people do not align with theirs.

Pretty much everyone I know believes it's important to be polite and respectful to everybody, trans or otherwise, and let them live their lives their way, as long as it harms nobody else.

General agreement that it feels strange calling someone "she" when they have a beard and to all intents and purposes dress in a stereotypically masculine way...But most people will give it a go if requested - who does it hurt?

Most people I know don't think people born male should compete in women's sports (though equally they don't lose sleep over it compared to other much more weighty issues). They would prefer a range of toilet options available so that ALL feels safe, including some that are penis or vagina free zones, though fine for some to be mixed if that suits some people better.

Nobody sane I know thinks rapists should be put in women's prisons.

Definitely there is frustration with the debate over trans seemingly becoming the only thing SOME feminists want to talk about at the moment, despite the numerous appalling abuses of women still going on globally..... AND with the amount of sympathy SOME trans people appear to demand over apparent abuses that just don't appear perceptible to any of the human senses . ..

Indeed, most seem to feel that caring strongly about trans matters either way is generally a massive middle class privilege, and there really are A LOT of things people should be a lot more angry about than this.....

Fair enough. Could you explain those impacts so I am better informed

•fundamentally any protected class that is open to anyone loses all of its protections. If anyone can be a woman then there is no way of assessing discrimination.

• any “single sex” space where women have a right to dignity and privacy now include natal men

• therapy sessions
• DV refuges
• Changing rooms
• hospital wards
• prisons

• women/girls being robbed of sports titles, places on teams or sponsorship opportunities because men/boys and faster/stronger than women/girls

• natal men taking places on women only shortlists; being included in gender pay gap analysis taking opportunities and skewing the data that is meant to protect women.

• skewed data on who commits offences and who are the victims of offences, prevents proper targeting of resourcing to ameliorate issues

There are many more