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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What does your network think about trans people?

1000 replies

deeter · 16/02/2024 19:33

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
37
DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 12:21

@Helleofabore @DuesToTheDirt @FrippEnos - thanks for your comments, can’t keep up with the replies.

Perhaps I’m asking too many questions! 😉

Terfosaurus · 17/02/2024 12:21

A complete mix.

Some of my friends think trans women are literally women. They should be allowed in womens spaces because they are women. And vice versa for trans men. Puberty blockers are totally safe and reversible. JK Rowling is the worst person ever born etc etc.
One "felt sorry for the poor lady in Scotland who was put in a man's prison". Uh, yes. The rapist who was put where he should be.

Some think trans people need love and compassion. It's a mental illness. You can't change sex. Trans women are men and should stay out of women's spaces. But they shouldn't be treated with derision.

Some (mainly my dick of a brother) think trans women are women because they've had "their dick chopped off and a fanny made" (his words not mine). He doesn't want them in men's spaces because they are freaks. Again, his words not mine. His opinion is awful imo.

Some I've not had a conversation with, or they don't understand enough about the complexities to have an opinion.

I fall largely into the second catagory. I think women's (as in biological women) spaces are important. We need and deserve them. I have trans and non binary friends if that's relevant.

Ooral · 17/02/2024 12:22

TheCadoganArms · 17/02/2024 09:27

I work in engineering, so generally find myself surrounded by STEM grads, most of whom find gender ideology total nonsense. It is mostly blokes so could be argued they are not directly affected by some of the issues concerned so are not very 'terfy'. My organisation has not been captured, there are no demands for pronouns on emails, no celebrating various awareness days or months, toilets are not gender neutral etc. Its a very multicultural organisation with people from all over the world. Everyone just cracks on with their job.

My sister on the other hand works in the arts where there is very much a culture of 'celebrating' every aspect of gender woo, pride flags, pride lanyards, mixed toilets, constant stream of circular emails reinforcing correct speech and thought, pronouns, training days, she toes the line as to be critical of anything carries the very real risk of 'special treatment'. At first she was very laid back and 'whatever' about it but roll on several years she is now is utterly fed up with the constant policing and in her words the 'borderline narcissim' of a couple of the (much younger) gender fluid non binary pan sexual types whose very existence seems to be only defined by their desire for constant affirmation.

I was fairly meh about the trans issues initially, mainly because I was fairly ignorant and very much fell into the live and let live camp that many on here have expressed.

As mentioned before I am very involved in sport (coach, club captain, committee etc) and I started to notice (especially in cycling, rugby and athletics)a minority of transwomen bossing the results. That was my 'peaking' moment as i thought it was absolutely batshit that biological males were being allowed to compete against women and that sports governing bodies were falling over themselves to be inclusive (while compromising fairness and safety of women). As I dug deeper and spoke to other clubs and people that were dealing with the safeguarding issues around TW wanting access to changing rooms and inclusion on the women's teams I was very much 'this is insane can't anyone see what is going on'. As it turned out plenty of sportswomen could see what was going on and were approaching me in my leadership role to approach the sports governing body to have another look at their policies.

To me now the literal legal definition of what it is to be a women was under attack. I did not like how an adult biologically female woman was now increasingly prefixed with 'cis' whether she likes it or not.

The social landscape had changed massively from 20 years ago. It started out as transgender people simply asking to be protected from being treated unfairly because they are transgender. People were asked to respect someone’s gender identity by treating a man “as if he were a woman”. It was a courtesy, a kindness extended to people who suffered from gender dysphoria. We all know that trans people aren’t literally the sex they identify as. It was simply polite to use “preferred pronouns” and repeat the platitude that “transwomen are women”. I was fully on board with that.

But this approach has now been fundamentally changed by trans activists. It is no longer enough to treat a man ‘as if he was a woman’. To respect his gender identity, it is now being demanded that we must now believe that he is literally female, that he hadn’t even been born the male sex at all and that all previous women and girls only spaces be obliged to recognise that the biological man in the corner who might not have undergone any gender reassignment treatment at all is in fact 100% a woman. So no, I was not going to let a biological man get changed in front of the women down my club, or benefit from the massive physical advantage that his male puberty bestowed upon him as he takes a spot on a team or podium place off some hard working woman athlete.

My sports governing body conducted a survey last year of its membership where overwhelmingly people voted that transwomen should not compete against biological women and they (reluctantly) changed their policy.

Fuck my coffee has gone cold now.

Possibly the best post on this issue, common sense and should be taken as policy by the imbeciles we have in government.

I for one am happy to let people be as they wish, be it religion/race/kettle/trans, but have some common sense as (with the exception of race) most of it is related to MH issues.

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2024 12:22

My grandparents were born in the 1910s and were always completely accepting of gay people and trans people.

What does this actually mean though? Accepting of men who are trans in women's prisons, refuges and sports for example?

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:23

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 12:17

‘Package of beliefs’ sounds a bit like persistent marketing calls to me. The small print must be mind-bending. I’d be worried about buyer’s remorse!

(Btw I didn’t mean right wing as a pejorative, more wondering about groups who perceive themselves as ‘rightful custodians’ of this debate).

I am sure that you have worked out by now the rather extreme hypocrisy of a group who is forceably labelling people as 'being aligned with the far right' when they are not, while complaining that some women will simply not comply to accept male people insisting that they are female too.

It is all about labels, isn't it?

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:23

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 12:21

@Helleofabore @DuesToTheDirt @FrippEnos - thanks for your comments, can’t keep up with the replies.

Perhaps I’m asking too many questions! 😉

Never stop asking questions! That is my motto.

ThreeRingCircus · 17/02/2024 12:24

LoveAHamSandwhich · 17/02/2024 12:19

Lolling at all the PPs who think they are being eminently accepting of trans people, whilst also saying "but obviously they shouldn't be in female spaces or sports". That makes you transphobic! According to the TWAW supporters. It is literal genocide.

I have a work colleague that is a transwoman. She does not believe that she is a woman and she does not use the female bathrooms. She seems eminently sensible and has a good grasp of biology as far as I'm concerned. I don't really care if the TWAW brigade think I'm transphobic. I think they're deniers of reality and hate women.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/02/2024 12:25

As someone who grew up in the 70s/80s with what were termed ‘gender bending’ performers such as David Bowie/Annie Lennox/boy george being very much in the public eye & friends with goths where all the men wore make up, nail varnish & feminine clothes, this is nothing to do with not being able to deal with gender non confirming men or difference

wear dresses men if that’s what you want, heels - you go for it (I never do myself but you know I’m still a woman) make up whatever you want!

More power to your elbow

doesn’t make you a woman though

Superlambaanana · 17/02/2024 12:27

To all of those saying trans people should be treated with dignity and respect/ kindly and with acceptance etc, what do you mean by that exactly?

Is it just be civil to them, not rude/ dismissive/ judgemental about their choices when engaging directly with them?

Or does it extend further, for example 'let them compete in sports under their new gender', let them change in M&S changing rooms/ be imprisoned based on their gender identity, let them administer care to a home bound disabled person who has asked not to be undressed/ washed by someone of the opposite sex etc?

HRTQueen · 17/02/2024 12:28

I think the fashion at certain time for men to wear make up or women dressing i a masculine way was just seen as a fashion it’s completely different to people who are trans though I do believe it’s all getting mixed up

joylessdivision · 17/02/2024 12:29

Superlambaanana · 17/02/2024 12:27

To all of those saying trans people should be treated with dignity and respect/ kindly and with acceptance etc, what do you mean by that exactly?

Is it just be civil to them, not rude/ dismissive/ judgemental about their choices when engaging directly with them?

Or does it extend further, for example 'let them compete in sports under their new gender', let them change in M&S changing rooms/ be imprisoned based on their gender identity, let them administer care to a home bound disabled person who has asked not to be undressed/ washed by someone of the opposite sex etc?

First one.

which demonstrably is still hard for many as per PP.

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:30

KreedKafer · 17/02/2024 12:12

All my friends and immediate family are supportive of trans people and would roll their eyes at anyone who called a trans woman ‘a man in a dress’. I’m from a working class London background and my parents and grandparents have always been massively relaxed about anyone seen as ‘different’. My grandparents were born in the 1910s and were always completely accepting of gay people and trans people. My grandad had a shoe repair shop in east London from 1949 onwards and used to repair shoes for quite a few trans women; they used to go to him because he was friendly, always called them ‘madam’ instead of ‘sir’ etc.

Can I clarify why you react to a male person with a trans identity being called 'a man in a dress'?

Do you feel that they are somehow no longer an adult human male so therefore not a 'man'? Why? Because they reject the label? Which other group of people who reject labels that reflect material reality do you respect the rejection of reasonable and socially acceptalbe (ie. not a slur) language for? And why?

It is blunt language. It might not be considered polite by some. But is that description false?

Pandadunks · 17/02/2024 12:31

That trans people should be left to get on with it, be who you want but none seem to think that a trans woman is actually a woman, nor a trans man a man the same way a biological man is.
Most also don’t think transwomen should competitively compete in women’s sports. I can’t think of a single person I know gay or straight that thinks that’s ok.

Joleyne · 17/02/2024 12:32

If America had looked at the history of British tolerance, instead of importing their aggressive trans activists to stir up trouble in our universities, the trans debate would have been a lot calmer and more civilised.
Trans activists, most of whom are not Trans, have made life much worse for Trans people. I don't know who they think they're fighting for, but it isn't Trans people.

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 12:35

HRTQueen · 17/02/2024 12:28

I think the fashion at certain time for men to wear make up or women dressing i a masculine way was just seen as a fashion it’s completely different to people who are trans though I do believe it’s all getting mixed up

Do you mean males shouldn’t use make up? Or females shouldn’t wear jeans and DMs? Is there a publication we should be following to get it right?

Must be very confusing choosing outfits as a trans person if the non-trans people aren’t getting it ‘right’?

joylessdivision · 17/02/2024 12:37

Joleyne · 17/02/2024 12:32

If America had looked at the history of British tolerance, instead of importing their aggressive trans activists to stir up trouble in our universities, the trans debate would have been a lot calmer and more civilised.
Trans activists, most of whom are not Trans, have made life much worse for Trans people. I don't know who they think they're fighting for, but it isn't Trans people.

I agree with this. There’s been so much ill thought virtue signalling. a friend of mine posted on Instagram that you should always ask people their pronouns when you meet them. How the fuck does that work when it’s clearly ol Gary behind the till of the post office? Most people present as the sex they are.
the common sense approach to me is if someone says to me “hey I actually prefer this pronoun” I have no problem using it.
its really damaging to trans and non binary folks etc when well meaning do gooders make really illogical and stupid rules that don’t work in real life.
the extreme views, from both sides, makes me think there will never be resolution to any of this that’s right for everyone.

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:38

ThreeRingCircus · 17/02/2024 12:24

I have a work colleague that is a transwoman. She does not believe that she is a woman and she does not use the female bathrooms. She seems eminently sensible and has a good grasp of biology as far as I'm concerned. I don't really care if the TWAW brigade think I'm transphobic. I think they're deniers of reality and hate women.

ThreeRing, I think we need to keep hearing accounts such as yours. Because it keeps it into perspective.

It became apparent to me that too often male trans people push the boundaries and demand access to female single sex spaces with the claim that they are not safe. Yet, the more posters write about their trans friends who will not use female single sex spaces the more that claim is exposed to be a false one when you look at the group collectively.

It was after reading posts such as yours that I confirmed in my mind that there really was an extreme activism effort. I was asked last night by a male poster as to why I used that term 'extreme'. I think that they thought it was a 'gotcha' and that I was positioning all trans people to be extreme. But the reality is trans people need to campaign for their needs and I don't know any one who declares that they shouldn't. But only the extreme end make demands that directly conflict another groups rights and demand that group makes concessions rather than finding an equitable solution.

So, thanks

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:41

joylessdivision · 17/02/2024 12:29

First one.

which demonstrably is still hard for many as per PP.

Which pps?

joylessdivision · 17/02/2024 12:44

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 12:41

Which pps?

Theeyeballsinthesky · Today 12:05

Why exactly am I expected to be respectful to men acting out their fantasy of what it is to be a woman?

Maskedpotato · 17/02/2024 12:51

In my circle no one cares about how people choose to dress, what name they use, chosen pronouns etc but think a trans woman is a trans woman not a woman.

TheHoover · 17/02/2024 12:51

Why exactly am I expected to be respectful to men acting out their fantasy of what it is to be a woman?

Believing all TW to be in this category and ergo not deserving of respect is an extremist viewpoint that crosses the line from being pro- women into firmly being anti trans.

Joleyne · 17/02/2024 12:53

Pretending that men can't see a Trans women in their toilet without beating them to a pulp is insulting. Most men don't care and have the same 'live and let live' tolerance.

HRTQueen · 17/02/2024 12:55

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 12:35

Do you mean males shouldn’t use make up? Or females shouldn’t wear jeans and DMs? Is there a publication we should be following to get it right?

Must be very confusing choosing outfits as a trans person if the non-trans people aren’t getting it ‘right’?

No I don’t think that at all

I think there is a distinction between people who enjoy dressing up (sometimes a sexual fetish) and people who feel they are the opposite sex and feel more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex

the fashion for dressing up was just that a fashion though some trans people may have felt at the time they could hide behind this fashion as to come out was just too difficult

StealthMama · 17/02/2024 12:59

@HRTQueen I think you're referring to AGP men, and men with gender dysphoria.

The former is all about self pleasure, sexual pleasure from wearing women's clothing. The latter is a detachment between one's physical appearance and one's psychological being.

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 13:05

HRTQueen · 17/02/2024 12:55

No I don’t think that at all

I think there is a distinction between people who enjoy dressing up (sometimes a sexual fetish) and people who feel they are the opposite sex and feel more comfortable presenting as the opposite sex

the fashion for dressing up was just that a fashion though some trans people may have felt at the time they could hide behind this fashion as to come out was just too difficult

Hmmm. Interesting. So having a feeling in your head when you’re getting dressed informs what you wear…

And if I’m hanging shelves in my combats I’m not a man because I haven’t had a feeling. And if I’m getting glammed up for a do I can remind myself that ‘this is how women dress’, even tho I’m dragging the bins out in my heels as the cab arrives.

Or something. This ‘feeling like’ stuff is quite challenging.

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