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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

What does your network think about trans people?

1000 replies

deeter · 16/02/2024 19:33

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

OP posts:
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37
StealthMama · 17/02/2024 09:39

@LoveAHamSandwhich but that still doesn't make them transphobic.

It means they are gender critical but haven't understood that yet.

Probably because being gender critical has been demonised by the TRAs, unlike the TQ++ brigade, there are many that avoid a label.

Tumbleweed101 · 17/02/2024 09:39

I haven't got any issue with individuals who are transgender. I believe for the genuine people there is likely to be genetic/hormonal reasons to how they feel.

However , I don't like how it has become such a big deal in schools so that half the children are identifying as something and how so many places have preferred pronouns etc. Just feels overkill for a small genuine minority.

And, however genuine someone is, if they still have male body parts and hormones they should be judged in a sex specific not gender specific way when it comes to vulnerable female spaces, sports, prisons etc. If you do a crime that means you need prison time then you lose that choice.

SouthEastCoast · 17/02/2024 09:40

My circle is accepting but my work colleagues are transphobic and backward striving

Theeyeballsinthesky · 17/02/2024 09:44

Transphobic = understanding that sometimes biological reality matters?

TheCadoganArms · 17/02/2024 09:44

@gannett

Do you not think that there are any areas where the demands of TRAs came into conflict with the rights of women? Any at all? Do you think the policy of 'No Debate' helped or hindered the way public discourse was conducted? Do you think that anyone raising a concern around (safeguarding, sports, mermaids, prisons etc) being labelled a bigot or transphobe and being on the receiving end of social media pile on and job loss helped?

LoveAHamSandwhich · 17/02/2024 09:50

StealthMama · 17/02/2024 09:39

@LoveAHamSandwhich but that still doesn't make them transphobic.

It means they are gender critical but haven't understood that yet.

Probably because being gender critical has been demonised by the TRAs, unlike the TQ++ brigade, there are many that avoid a label.

But to be GC is, according to the TWAW brigade, transphobic. That is my point.

You cannot say "It's not a big deal, just keep men out of women's sports". That very statement is transphobic.

Greendoorsaremyfavourite · 17/02/2024 09:51

Just let people live their lives and do with their bodies what they wish.

I think there are a lot of conversations that need to be had to ensure life is fair and safe for everyone (and I don't know how that looks) but that doesn't seem to be able to happen without it descending into arguments and nastiness from both sides.

5128gap · 17/02/2024 09:52

I don't know anyone who believes you can change sex. Everyone who's voiced an opinion thinks that people are male or female, but that there are some people who wish they were the opposite sex; and that society in the main let's them 'pretend' to be because it makes them happy.
There are varying levels to which people feel society should go along with it. Most see no problem is using preferred pronouns (though I know only one person who states their own pronouns, despite working in an inclusive environment).
I've never met anyone who thinks people should use opposite sex toilets and changing rooms or that its fair for TW to compete against women in sport. People are particularly concerned about transitioning teens as they think its a fad amongst young people.
I've never met anyone over the age of 30 who didn't bristle, eye roll or look bemused at attempts to introduce the word 'cis', and have never heard anyone actually use it without deep irony and air quotes.

Superlambaanana · 17/02/2024 09:52

I live in a rural community which is not diverse at all but work in a city which is progressive and diverse.

My friends and family at home are frightened about getting the language wrong or offending either side given the vitriol of the debate in recent years. So aren't comfortable talking about it and have little reason to. Historically they would have thought 'cross dressers' were oddballs and I suspect haven't changed their view of trans women. The stifling of conversation means that will probably never change.

My work network splits mostly into two categories - people who virtue signal with pronouns and push the bekind agenda (same people who have non-jobs but stuff like 'community builder' and 'global adviser' in LinkedIn bio), and people who might be interested in learning more but shy away from it because it's too febrile.

I would love to know some feminists IRL because I find that perspective most compelling. If it was live and let live it would be fine, but women do seem to be being negatively impacted by men who identify as trans women, though I haven't had any personal experience of this happening to me. (Im half expecting the doorbell to ring with police as soon as I hit post on this!)

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 09:52

In regards to pronoun usage and why a growing number of people now refuse to use preferred pronouns or even refer to male people who demand to be called ‘women’ as transwomen, I think Naomi Cunningham has summed it up rather well in this interview.

Naomi Cunningham is a barrister and so has some first hand experience in how the effects of language changes impacts policy and law. In my reading on the topic, I have seen the argument used that ‘people use my pronouns therefore it is cruel / inhumane to deny my demand to be included in female sport / prison / single sex spaces’.

The recent past has now shown us just how important pronouns are in getting changes of law and policy. It has come to light that it is a leverage tool so that activists can use the rhetoric ‘I am fully accepted as a female, people call me ‘she’, it is cruel to deny me access to [insert female single sex space or sex based opportunity here]’. And it works.

The CPS published that:

Refusing to use their preferred name or pronoun

Was considered abuse by an intimate partner. Think about that. A long term partner who may be in an abusive relationship has been in turn designated as abusive to that abusive partner by the Crown Prosecuting Service.

www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/domestic-abuse

To date, extreme trans activists have leveraged people’s use of pronouns and this social acceptance of males being ‘woman’ to push through their political agenda. Sport is one of area that this has been done. McKinnon/Ivy stood infront of policy makers and argued that it was cruel and inhumane to deny males trans people the right to compete as their chosen gender. Why? Because surely society at large accepted they were ‘female’ as people used their female pronouns and treated them a female.

Here is one link for McKinnon / Ivy

news.sky.com/story/trans-cyclist-rachel-mckinnon-defends-her-right-to-race-in-womens-competitions-11838131

There is another to a video but it needs a VPN to view outside of the USA.

Mridul Wadhwa is another. Applied for a female advertised job role and was made CEO of a rape crisis centre. Because everyone treats this male individual as a female.

The effect of using preferred pronouns is that it also then removes cues for others to have full information for their decision making. If someone is using preferred pronouns for a male who demands access to the female single sex facilities, it doesn’t alert a woman in that conversation that this male might be in a single sex space sometime.

If a woman hears the preferred pronouns being used for a carer or health professional, she is being given cues that the person they are seeing in front of them is female.

You can be assured that Mridul Wadhwa’s female counselling clients would be led to believe that they were wrong in thinking Wadwha is male because everyone around them uses preferred pronouns. How many of them never asked or felt they could ask?

The end result is the same still. Using the wrong sex pronouns for someone when you know that the person is the opposite sex, allows male people to access female single sex provisions, ie sport, spaces, short lists, and so on.

Not necessarily that particular person at that particular time, but the impact is the same. It may build up over time, or it can have an immediate effect. Or it can be used collectively such as McKinnon/Ivy successfully argued.

It really is a falsehood that it is ‘harmless’, just as it is false to say it is ‘a kindness.’ Because that kindness is just to one person and it is unkind to those who needed that knowledge, that verbal cue, to make a decision that was significant and important to them.

So, to any person reading this who has ever written or thought, where is the harm in just being kind and using pronouns, there is harm in my opinion. Maybe not that you can trace directly, but the harm is there on numerous fronts. It is up to you whether you use a person’s preferred pronouns, but i think it is important to understand the overall result of doing so.

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2024 09:52

That's a direct result of the anti-trans rhetoric that's become commonplace lately

But what are you actually talking about here? That people can't change sex and that has implications for single sex spaces?

That isn't 'anti trans rhetoric'. That's biological facts and basic safeguarding.

LoveAHamSandwhich · 17/02/2024 09:53

Greendoorsaremyfavourite · 17/02/2024 09:51

Just let people live their lives and do with their bodies what they wish.

I think there are a lot of conversations that need to be had to ensure life is fair and safe for everyone (and I don't know how that looks) but that doesn't seem to be able to happen without it descending into arguments and nastiness from both sides.

And if a male body wishes to take part in female sport - that's OK, is it?

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2024 09:58

If people are going to use the term 'transphobic' it would be useful if they define what they mean by it. Because it's really not clear.

Rangelife · 17/02/2024 09:59

I've just realised who in my circle I've had a conversation with about this and realised I've not broached it much with my friends, which is weird.

I've had the most conversations about it with my teenage DC, my nephew's and my kids friends who all gently mock me for being a transphobe. I'm gender critical, not trans phobic but you aren't allowed to differentiate it now are you? When I break it down with them (eldest group are 20, youngest are 12) they understand my concerns about penises and strength/physicality of grown males and the opportunity to abuse.

I have had five direct dealings with trans children. M to F and F to M. One is within our family (by marriage), two have been my DC friends and two have been professionally. I noticed in each case, no matter which transfer of gender to and from, I had concerns about parenting capacity. Not in terms of providing for the child and meeting their physical needs but emotional need meeting often seemed...off. I discussed this with colleagues and they too were curious about assessed patterns in these situations. It could just be chance though and I've left that profession now.

DissidentDaughter · 17/02/2024 09:59

I’m puzzled by @gannet’s remark.

On the one hand highlighting the value of being respectful towards trans people (I agree, they’re human beings last time I was in the supermarket aisle), yet on the other suggesting that voicing other opinions is ‘fomenting’ and is ‘anti trans’.

Certainly we were both identifying as shoppers at the dog food section. I’d even go so far as to say the staff might agree!

LoveAHamSandwhich · 17/02/2024 10:01

TheKeatingFive · 17/02/2024 09:58

If people are going to use the term 'transphobic' it would be useful if they define what they mean by it. Because it's really not clear.

Well, quite. Good luck with that!

Oblomov24 · 17/02/2024 10:01

Makes me sad. You can't change sex, fact. It can't be resolved satisfactorily, so mostly just causes MH issues and frustration, because it's a lose-lose situation. It's like wanting to be white when you are black, you can't. It's a tiny proportion of the population, but it's so dominant in the news and life, it's preposterous.

FunnyMoone · 17/02/2024 10:03

Any one can express themselves how they wish. We've all known people who are female but are more masculine, we've all known males who are more effeminate and it would not surprise us if they wanted to live as a member of the opposite gender .But ! one can change their biological sex . Trans people taking part in women's sports have proved that .

Outwiththenorm · 17/02/2024 10:05

I found this diagram really useful when first getting my head around it all

What does your network think about trans people?
Futb0l · 17/02/2024 10:09

Everyone i know over the age of 25 thinks "trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.".

Don't care how people live but very clear on the difference between gender and biological sex/DNA.

RinklyRomaine · 17/02/2024 10:15

Most of the adults I know think live and let live, but sex is immutable, matters, and to say otherwise is just silly. Several years ago I think a lot more were of the opinion that they all had sex changes and were friendly gay lads with issues. They believed the OITNB / Corrie propaganda. The constant presence of AGP on social media has disabused them of that. Almost all the women I know are terfy (40s plus) and all the men. The few who aren't have contact with a feted 'trans child' and would never admit what they have supported.

My teen and all her friends think it's all just majorly boring attention seeking amongst their peers, and weird perverts in older guys. The two trans identifying males on my street are both greasy hyper sexualised types at all times so I think this where the kids get this opinion.

RinklyRomaine · 17/02/2024 10:16

To add, my MIL was very live and let live til several men joined a couple of her FB groups and started with the usual slightly sexualised validation request posts, including the one who posts his charity shop finds with comments about stockings on underneath. She is terfier than me now.

Helleofabore · 17/02/2024 10:18

gannett · 17/02/2024 09:22

My network includes trans men and trans women (and several non-binary people) so of course we're unreservedly accepting of them and their right to identify as whatever they need to.

I always swore I'd never get involved in a MN bunfight with the awful TERFs on here but the one thing I need to say is that it's been incredibly distressing to see the impact of the public discourse that you've fomented on my friends' mental health. A good friend of mine is a trans woman, I met her 20 years ago and she was outgoing, creative, successful and happy. Over the past few years she's become depressed and reclusive, and feels much less safe out and about than she did in 2004. That's a direct result of the anti-trans rhetoric that's become commonplace lately. All she wants to do is live her life in the body she feels comfortable in.

A point I am constantly amazed the TERFs never acknowledge is that trans women are aat as high a risk of cis male violence as cis women.

Your post is full of hyperbole and emotional manipulation. It is quite clear you cannot engage with any reasoned contribution when you are so determined to vilify and demonise people who hold a different opinion to you.

Your male trans friend may be at high risk of violence from other male people. However, that doesn’t make it feminists issue to fix. And it doesn’t ever make it ok to use female people as human shields or as security.

Can you please provide the evidence that the risk of male people with a trans identity is lower than the rest of the male UK population for safeguarding?

I have bolded this because it is very important and I hope you can provide this evidence. Because otherwise all you have is emotionally manipulative tactics that you use to convince people that you and your friends are righteous that your demands are met.

So, point us to the evidence. Because I can point to statistics on the current UK prison population that shows that those male people you are demanding have access to female single sex spaces have NO lower risk of committing a sexual offense at all. None. Yet you fully believe you are the righteous one?

MintyCedric · 17/02/2024 10:18

I work in a large, coed, school and I suspect a lot of people would feel uncomfortable discussing it as a subject.

My closest colleague and I have discussed it briefly in the context of our roles and are both largely of the opinion that each case is individual and individuals need to be treated with kindness and respect.

My previous school was smaller and all girls and students struggling with their gender ID was a much bigger issue there.

Most of my friends (late forties to late sixties) think that women’s safe spaces need to remain just that…not because all trans women must be covert predators but simply because it makes it easier for the minority of predatory males, however they perceive themselves, to attack vulnerable women.

As for sport, it’s not rocket science that anyone in possession of a male body, particularly one that has gone through puberty, should not be competing against biological females.

Weirdly, my mum, who is in her mid eighties, has effortlessly gotten her head around my male cousin deciding he’s a woman in his late fifties. And my late dad went to reunion in the mid 90s and discovered one of his old 18-30 mates was now a woman. Didn’t faze him in the slightest.

Filly89 · 17/02/2024 10:19

That's a direct result of the anti-trans rhetoric that's become commonplace lately

What is anti trans rhetoric though? Because it seems to be anything that's not in total support of anything and everything relating to trans rights I.e. sharing womens spaces, sports etc.. I've seen videos of transwomen advertising tampons for christ sake. It's not anti trans to say that's stupid.

I don't think you get to expect another group of people to support you at the detriment to their own comfort I.e. expecting women to share spaces with biological men if they don't feel comfortable doing so.

I will call a biological male a she if they want me to or by a typically female name, I won't bat an eye if they want to wear typically female clothing etc but I'm not going to make myself and other women feel diminished or our actual biological issues be diminished in support of comforting someone else's feelings. That is not a reasonable expectation.

There has to be a line somewhere. It cannot solely be about one group of peoples comfort and wishes.

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