What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

For those saying it’s a non issue or only affects a tiny number of people, it doesn’t. The redefining of woman away from “adult human female“ to “adult human female plus men with special undefinable lady feelings” affects every single woman in the UK. At a stroke anything defined as being for women can now include “and some men”

it’s baffling how accepting people are if this. I’m childless, I have no child of my own, no adopted child Abd no step children. I’d really like to be a mother though so how about I get to self ID as one? How about because I reeeeaaallyyy feel like a mother I get to go on maternity leave because it would be childlessphobic to deny me?

ridiculous? Of course but somehow it’s ok for men to be called women and have our words & spaces

Yes. This is what is happening.

Often what also happens is that you see ‘both sides are bad’ being stated. But when you actually look at what is happening in the UK, it is not symmetrical at all.

Those campaigning to find equitable solutions to be able to protect women and children don’t wish to expose trans people to harm. They might be blunt and say ‘that is not our issue to sort out’ but that is them clearly stating they have boundaries on where their resources are expended. And if male people need unique provisions in law, policy and physical provision then it is not for those women campaigning to sort out. It is for those supporting those male people. If you see what I mean.

However, it becomes expedient for some who for whatever reason don’t want to be seen with such women campaigning to protect women and children. Or some people don’t wish to put in the huge effort of getting their own heads around what is happening so they believe that they are the ‘middle ground’, when they are not. Either their solutions are unworkable or are just as harmful to women and children or their ideas are what women have been campaigning for over decades.

Often those claims of ‘both sides’ are polarised come from a lack of understanding. Sometimes, it comes from a personal motivation to remain ‘kind’ or to fit in with their political party, or there is a personal motivation for the claim.

I'd go further and say women and all men, because of self id there is no specific criteria to be met.

So any man at any point can decide whether something is for women only or women and men.

Sounds A LOT like patriarchy to me. Regressive at that.

What you are saying though is while you don’t choose to activate to improve the laws and policies, you will be happy with those changes? Is that correct?

So you will be happy with the benefits of those you have dismissively denigrated as getting ‘worked up’?

Most feel the same as me.

Dress how you like, spend your time how you like and ask to be calls what you like. But don't go into single sex female spaces or try and compete as a woman in sports if you are biologically male sex.

We all know sex is determined at conception and is a biological process.

I know an odd person who is fully on the trans side and argues peoples clothing determines sex.

Most of my social group are parents of swimmers and SE/BS has a gender/ sex policy. They have switched to male/open and female categories. So we've had this conversation because it's come up and there was a hoo hah on the summer because a transwoman who volunteers was complaining in the media about not being able to enter the female changing rooms. (Not at the pool I may add. It was because she was given a key to unisex changing in the hotel)

Crikey, lots of new comments to think through.

The common theme seems to be that people state they’re ‘accepting of trans’ but often have exceptions.

Makes me wonder what is “trans” exactly? What does it actually mean? What do people mean (exceptions aside) when they say they’re fully accepting/non judgmental of trans people etc?

My friendship group are mostly from a sport we all play, so we discuss this often and unanimously agree that we have no issue with trans women themselves but do not agree at all with them competing in female sport.

Even in our reasonably non physical sport the advantages of being born male are very clear.

Maybe it’s that on an individual level people are ok with trans people- ie they aren’t going to curl their lip at them or take the piss. They treat them as an individual like you would anyone else etc.

But that also sits with not being ok about policies. Policies where women only spaces are encroached on, and women’s sport is made unfair, or vulnerable women are put in danger.

@realdays your academic education is separate to your cultural and social exposure though.

Your example is common - it's not happened to me so I don't mind.

But there are plenty who have had to share changing facilities with men who claimed to be women, when they didn't want to.

Young girls on swimming teams forced to share with trans identifying males and told of they don't like it then leave the team.

Do you agree that's not right or does it not bother you at all?

Yes you do see this often. You can't ask a simple question.

I think if you're unable to answer simple questions about something you're stating as fact then you likely have no argument at all.

But obviously asking something as simple as what is a woman then? makes me a bigot 🙄😬

And 9 times out of 10 you'll get some complete non answer like "a woman is a woman".

How can anyonr state something as fact that they can't even define?! Madness to me.

In my 50s. My friends would all agree with this

Difficult to discuss with my children, as they're pretty black and white that TWAW. I wonder if they will question this more as they get older

At work, I would be very hesitant to speak freely on the issue. And this does worry me. We should be able to speak freely

My network includes trans men and trans women (and several non-binary people) so of course we're unreservedly accepting of them and their right to identify as whatever they need to.

I always swore I'd never get involved in a MN bunfight with the awful TERFs on here but the one thing I need to say is that it's been incredibly distressing to see the impact of the public discourse that you've fomented on my friends' mental health. A good friend of mine is a trans woman, I met her 20 years ago and she was outgoing, creative, successful and happy. Over the past few years she's become depressed and reclusive, and feels much less safe out and about than she did in 2004. That's a direct result of the anti-trans rhetoric that's become commonplace lately. All she wants to do is live her life in the body she feels comfortable in.

A point I am constantly amazed the TERFs never acknowledge is that trans women are aat as high a risk of cis male violence as cis women.

I work in engineering, so generally find myself surrounded by STEM grads, most of whom find gender ideology total nonsense. It is mostly blokes so could be argued they are not directly affected by some of the issues concerned so are not very 'terfy'. My organisation has not been captured, there are no demands for pronouns on emails, no celebrating various awareness days or months, toilets are not gender neutral etc. Its a very multicultural organisation with people from all over the world. Everyone just cracks on with their job.

My sister on the other hand works in the arts where there is very much a culture of 'celebrating' every aspect of gender woo, pride flags, pride lanyards, mixed toilets, constant stream of circular emails reinforcing correct speech and thought, pronouns, training days, she toes the line as to be critical of anything carries the very real risk of 'special treatment'. At first she was very laid back and 'whatever' about it but roll on several years she is now is utterly fed up with the constant policing and in her words the 'borderline narcissim' of a couple of the (much younger) gender fluid non binary pan sexual types whose very existence seems to be only defined by their desire for constant affirmation.

I was fairly meh about the trans issues initially, mainly because I was fairly ignorant and very much fell into the live and let live camp that many on here have expressed.

As mentioned before I am very involved in sport (coach, club captain, committee etc) and I started to notice (especially in cycling, rugby and athletics)a minority of transwomen bossing the results. That was my 'peaking' moment as i thought it was absolutely batshit that biological males were being allowed to compete against women and that sports governing bodies were falling over themselves to be inclusive (while compromising fairness and safety of women). As I dug deeper and spoke to other clubs and people that were dealing with the safeguarding issues around TW wanting access to changing rooms and inclusion on the women's teams I was very much 'this is insane can't anyone see what is going on'. As it turned out plenty of sportswomen could see what was going on and were approaching me in my leadership role to approach the sports governing body to have another look at their policies.

To me now the literal legal definition of what it is to be a women was under attack. I did not like how an adult biologically female woman was now increasingly prefixed with 'cis' whether she likes it or not.

The social landscape had changed massively from 20 years ago. It started out as transgender people simply asking to be protected from being treated unfairly because they are transgender. People were asked to respect someone’s gender identity by treating a man “as if he were a woman”. It was a courtesy, a kindness extended to people who suffered from gender dysphoria. We all know that trans people aren’t literally the sex they identify as. It was simply polite to use “preferred pronouns” and repeat the platitude that “transwomen are women”. I was fully on board with that.

But this approach has now been fundamentally changed by trans activists. It is no longer enough to treat a man ‘as if he was a woman’. To respect his gender identity, it is now being demanded that we must now believe that he is literally female, that he hadn’t even been born the male sex at all and that all previous women and girls only spaces be obliged to recognise that the biological man in the corner who might not have undergone any gender reassignment treatment at all is in fact 100% a woman. So no, I was not going to let a biological man get changed in front of the women down my club, or benefit from the massive physical advantage that his male puberty bestowed upon him as he takes a spot on a team or podium place off some hard working woman athlete.

My sports governing body conducted a survey last year of its membership where overwhelmingly people voted that transwomen should not compete against biological women and they (reluctantly) changed their policy.

Fuck my coffee has gone cold now.

A point I am constantly amazed the TERFs never acknowledge is that trans women are aat as high a risk of cis male violence as cis women.

2 women a week are murdered by men in the UK. Im sure you can evidence your hyperbolic claim though

I don't care what they wear as long as they keep out of female spaces like changing rooms and toilets and female races. If they want to compete then in an open classification or why not have a trans classification so they can compete againist each other.

Right, thanks @RecentError I imagine everyone recognises another human being as, well, human. And treats them accordingly, ‘do as you would be done by’ - you can take out a mortgage, drive a car, have a relationship, go to the supermarket etc.

Friends are all TWAW. Interestingly most of my team of colleagues aren't, they are supportive of people expressing themselves how they want but think there are times sex matters (like sports and prison and healthcare). We are health care professionals. Some of the wider health care team are more TWAW however.

I don't think you're understanding my point.

My point is that you can't say trans is a "non issue", making out it's all a fuss about nothing - and you even have trans friends - whilst also saying "but men shouldn't be allowed in women's sports".

It's one or the other.

I was responding to the first reply on this thread, which is very muddled when you consider it.

"non issue. Anyone can dress as they want and be called what they want. No one cares. As long as men keep out of women's sports and women's places, it doesn't affect anyone else, does it. Two transwomen among my friends - one in their 20s one in their 50s"

"All she wants to do is live her life in the body she feels comfortable in."
This is a nonsensical statement - it is not possible to change the body one is in. It remains a male body.

We all think it is complete lunacy. Wearing women's clothes does not make you a woman. Even undergoing transitioning surgery/meds does not make you a woman. It is just yet another way of men undermining us and don't get us started on drag when we've had a few gins.

@gannett the issue of male on male violence is not an issue for women to solve, is it.

Rather than blame the 'terfs' consider what exactly has changed in the 20 years.

20 years ago your friend would have been labelled a trans -sexual or a transvestite. They were known to be men who dressed as women, possibly a sexual fetish.

There were significantly less issues around boundaries because they weren't claiming to be women or to be politically categorised as women thus broadening law and policy's

Now, trans identifying men are literally claiming to be women - led by the TRAs and supported by the no debate brigade.

Your friend might feel unsafe, but it's not because of women continuing to protect themselves from men. Because that is a tragedy as old as time.

Think about where you are laying the blame, and why.

Can I assume "TERFS" means a completely normal person?

A point I am constantly amazed the TERFs never acknowledge is that trans women are aat as high a risk of cis male violence as cis women.

The evidence doesn't back this up. Or even close.

But even if it were true, why bring actual women into it? If males are at risk from other males in male spaces, why would that be women's issue to solve? Women suffer enough as a result of male violence, without asking them to take on more risk for others.