What does your network think about trans people?

[deeter]

Immediate family think it's all a bit silly, trans people should be treated well but you cannot change sex. Women's spaces should be protected etc.

But interestingly all of my university friends think trans women are women (did go to a London uni with well to do sorts).

I'm 31 btw.

The other thing that pisses me off is all the acronyms and terminology, making it a minefield/making the discussion to access for many.

Getting back to basics would be good to open up the discussion to those not abreast of the lingo.

TWAW?
I guess GC is gender critical but I’ll have to Google exactly what that means
TERF? I know what it stands for but is it a slur etc?

It’s too fucking complicated. Makes average people scared to mention they don’t want a bloke in the changing rooms with their teenage daughter. Well I don’t, anyway. I like standing by the mirror hoicking up my boobs and chatting with other women about shit safe in the knowledge men aren’t around. Workplaces and venues I’ve always assumed merge toilets as it’s a cop out cheap option for them.

I'm 29 and every single one of my friendship group think it's all a bit stupid. Wear what you want, call yourself what you want, hell ill even call you she if you want but you're not actually a woman. And the whole things of trans people entering women's spaces, sports, advertising tampons or whatever just makes us all angry.

We've all also agreed that we'd pull our kids from a school that started teaching this crap.

It is really also becoming apparent on this thread that people are saying ‘we are fully supportive’ of trans people. When they then list exceptions.

Meaning they are not fully supportive of trans people at all.

Do people know why they are saying this, when it is obviously not true? Is it a defence against potential ostracism for admitting that this position is ‘not fully supportive’ of trans people?

There was a school local to us that put on a drag day where they had make up stations set up around school, encouraged kids to dress up like drag queens and had one of those drag story presenters in.

They ended up cancelling it because so many parents refused to send their child in that day.

Was pretty proud of my town when that discussed on the local Facebook page.

They just haven't ever thought it through before

Pretty much all of my immediate friends and family think it's bonkers. All very live and let live but you cannot literally become the opposite sex. I'm happy to be polite with pronouns, people can dress how they want, love who they want and live how they want but I'll never believe you literally changed sex.

I have some hard core TRA friends, we don't discuss it.

Grown up transpeople - to be treated with courtesy. People can live their lives however they wish, as long as they do no harm to anyone else.

But

• Changing sex is not possible.
• Women are entitled to female-only spaces.
• Female changing rooms are for females only.
• Children must be protected from making any non-reversible decisions. There's plenty of time to make such a decision when adult.

I mean surely there is a limit of what people can be expected to be supportive of though?

As I said above. I really don't care if a man wants to wear womens clothing or makeup or call himself Rebecca. I'll call you that. I wouldn't go out of my way to insist on calling you Mike or whatever.

But to me, it's all just getting a bit daft. And my support has a limit. I think being unable to define what a woman actually is is dangerous and it has negative affects on actual women. I'm not going to support things that I think have negative impacts on women.

Or things that I think are just plain fucking stupid. For example, I'm in various FB groups which involve a lot of Americans and the things some of these people believe. There was one person the other day insisting their pronouns were Fae. And they are really being serious and think you're a bigot if you don't want to refer to Sandra who works in accounts as a Fae.

I don't have time for that nonsense.

Children must be protected from making any non-reversible decisions. There's plenty of time to make such a decision when adult

And absolutely this. I cannot in good conscience support anything to do with children transitioning.

I do worry that its now seen as a trend and I worry for young people today and what they are being taught.

Thankfully so far the children in my life also think it's all a bit silly too.

Exactly. Those who blithely announce ‘it’s a non-issue’ or ‘it is fine, doesn’t affect me’ just haven’t thought it through!

It concerns me, this lack of critical thinking and complete absence of imagination.

For readers unsure of terminology:

The term ‘GC’ of course is a shortened version of ‘Gender Critical’, which is shortening of ‘Gender Critical feminist’. Gender critical feminist was the original term and referred to the feminist theory that rejected gender stereotypes. Meaning that those feminists rejected the stereotypes being used by trans people to define their identities. Feminists seek to abolish the gender stereotypes embraced by people who believe that people can change sex.

It is a universal belief that people cannot change sex. The vast majority of the world’s population don’t believe people can change sex. So therefore people across a wide spectrum of political views share that opinion based on scientific evidence.

Some people who are considered far right wing also share the belief that people cannot change sex. It is not a controversial thing to believe. No chopping of cocks will change a person’s sex. Those groups also tend to embrace gender stereotypes.

However, to falsely align feminists with people who may have very different motivations to them yet want outcome that look similar when described at top level description only, extreme activists have dropped the ‘feminist’ from
the term ‘gender critical feminist’:

This is how ‘gender critical‘ is dishonestly misused. To falsely bolster discussions about political alignment.

Those other groups who also believe that sex cannot be changed, yet embrace gender stereotypes are falsely labelled ‘gender critical’. They are not. But by falsely labelling the different groups this way, by force teaming feminists with far right groups, extreme trans activists and lazy people who simply repeat what those activists say, portray feminists as allies of the far right. This is done to discredit feminists and to portray them as hateful towards trans people. This is false.

Hence you get a ridiculous statement such as ;

“almost all alt-right bods are GC”

There is definitely a fear of being ostracised too going on.

I'd safely bet that the people I know, whom all think the whole thing is rather daft, would avoid having to openly say it to someone they didn't know. Because the people in support of the whole thing are so vicious.

Most of my friends and my teens and theirs, think being trans is fine, no judgment, couldn't care less less, but object to be lectured about it and to trans issues dominating every sphere of public life when it's such a relatively small group of people.

My ds is a kind, polite 16 and I asked him what the general view among his class mates was.

He rolled his eyes, said everyone was bored stupid with the whole topic, it was ridiculous, and every single one of years 11, 12 and 13 had boycotted a visiting speaker on the issue.

Kids tend to say it how it is.

That is so helpful, thank you!

Slightly off piste, but did anyone see the segment on this morning the other day where they were testing sex toys? The presenter picked up a flashlight contraption and said "this is for people with penises" 🤦‍♀️

My job means that I need to be completely on board with trans issues as I deal with tend and non binary clients quite regularly.

Gives me the benefit of 'nuance' around the issue, and yes some if the clients are arrogant and entitled, just like any other group of people can be.

Personal, my parents aren't having it all as it 'didn't happen in their day' , and no amount if reasoning with them will change that . Friends are not bothered , very pro becwho you want to be, treat people with kindness etc but like me, know there is a discussion to be had about transgender in sports and vulnerable women's spaces.

The people in my circle are largely gender critical, but sympathetic. Most people I know think that mental health support in this country is a disgrace and that trans people, along with anyone else needing support, have been hugely let down by the system.

This covers teaching assistants, who are both highly protective of the trans students in our school whilst also being highly sceptical of their trans nature. It also covers the people in my social circle with adult male trans relatives. The latter is a very small sample size, but all three of the trans males have complex mental health issues, poor social skills and manga porn obsessions. Their relatives are all gender critical. They are all aunties, rather than mums, of the trans adults, which I think probably makes a massive difference to the uncritically accepting/gender critical divide. I’m definitely not saying all transwomen are like these three - like I say, it’s a very small sample size.

Immediate family (includes parents to small children) think it's dangerous nonsense.
Workplace has said TWAW, men have menopause and don't you dare argue.
Friend groups think live and let live, but maybe use common sense and don't put the rapist into a women's prison or let biological men ruin women's sport, without that being shut down as bigotry? And we all don't like unisex toilets because male bodied people piss all over them.

@LoveAHamSandwhich it isn't Transphobic to follow policy or legislation, that protects population level human rights.

It is transphobic to say that some of those human rights shouldn't apply to that group of people (trans) but that isn't what is being said here.

Just as it is misogynistic to say those same human rights can be breached or diminished for women to in favour of trans identifying men.

Anyone in favour of diminishing the rights of others, is not in favour of human rights at all.

The background of TERF is that it stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist. From what I believe a group of rad fems did use it for their campaigning a long time again. (radical meaning ‘the root of’ not ‘radical behaviour - meaning they centre female people always)

It was then quickly taken and misused as a form of abuse. Ai have linked a tiny % of what gets posted in way of that abuse. It has been huge and ongoing for some time.

https://terfisaslur.com/

TERF is also incorrect. Feminism is a collective movement for all female people. Even those female people who currently identify as men and boys will benefit from feminism.

The hatred of ‘TERFs’ is fed by male people being excluded when they demand inclusion. It is what highlights those who use the term ‘terf’ as a slur as having a high likelihood of being men’s rights activists, whether they realise they are supporting male people’s rights over female people’s rights or not. It can be unintentional.

Some feminists try to take the term for themselves. Often as a form of defiance. Many feminists reject it.

I think it has become apparent that it is very important to remain specific about what your motivations / priorities are. That stops ludicrous and thought terminating accusations of transphobia and other false accusations used to dismiss an opinion without engaging with it.

For example, I say that I campaign for sex to be prioritised above gender where sex matters to the protection of the needs of all female people and children. It is long, but it centres female people.

From what I have come to believe, Feminism centres only female people and children.

Everything has become so polarised. There is no space for nuance any more which makes this conversation as hard as Israel/Palestine. Where calls for a ceasefire are translated as anti semitism.

It feels like we are going backwards in freedom of speech as so many of the burning issues can’t be discussed/are censored/misconstrued because of polarisation.

Actually, some people, as we have seen on this thread demand unconditional support though. What you describe for your own views is what I believe the majority (as proven by polls) thinks in many aspects.

However, there are, as we saw upthread, those who seem to have fully supported that male people CAN magically become female. And that this should be 100% supported. Not only that, but to even question how this change of sex is possible is automatically considered hate.

And that hatred to them is to be demonised, vilified and it make those people worthy of being dehumanised. So that you see signs about killing women who disagree that someone can change sex, and some people actually believe this is appropriate.

Your view is exactly the same as many on MN / FWR who apparently are all transphobic bigots.

Fully accepting is fully accepting, not fully accepting but.... If you fully accept them then they should be in sports, prisons and no research into appropriate treatments.

(I do not think you are a transphobic bigot by the way)

The gender critical's are everywhere! Who'd a thunk it!