Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To have been told off by HR for this?

588 replies

Mhassy · 14/02/2024 16:17

I asked a member of the HR team if they had children, in the context of discussing a flexible working request. This was in the small talk/intro part of the conversation, it wasn’t said to make a point or anything, or to bolster my request for flexible working. It was literally a polite back and forth before the actual meeting began, she asked how things were going with DD, I mentioned some new teething and it was all very chatty and I just asked - I thought politely! - if she had children. She told me she didn’t and the time had passed for her to now. We then moved onto the meeting itself.

Anyway, a day later I have a called from someone high up in HR to say I shouldn’t ask people if they have children and this is not an appropriate question in the workplace.

I do get that pregnancy etc can be a sensitive topic. I lost a baby a few years ago and it was and incredibly painful time at work and I felt triggered by any small talk about babies. However I would never have made an issue and I didn’t make an issue when the topic was raised.

AIBU to think this is a step too far to be policing this sort of conversation? I am recently a single parent and wouldn’t launch into being offended if I was asked if I had a partner? Where does it end? I was only making conversation!

OP posts:
WhatNoUsername · 14/02/2024 23:40

lemonmeringueno3 · 14/02/2024 18:34

I'm really surprised at how many pp think it is an inappropriate topic of conversation. I don't think it is. I think if someone is triggered by normal topics of conversation they should recognise that it is their own responsibility to cope with the arising emotions, not to complain and police what other staff can talk about.

This. People feeling they are able to speak freely and without feeling as if they are constantly walking on eggshells is more important than the feelings of people who get offended at perfectly normal topics of conversation.

I have an anxiety disorder and trauma. I get "triggered" by some very very normal topics of conversation. Dental treatment being one of them. I don't run to HR every time someone talks about dentists. That's my shit to deal with. It's not the responsibility of everyone around me to moderate their behaviour and speech.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 14/02/2024 23:42

Runnerinthenight · 14/02/2024 23:02

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 22:13

If the question doesn't matter, and the answer doesn't matter:

  1. Communication is the transfer of information from one person to another. What information is actually conveyed in this interaction? It's not actually communication, is it, it's noise.
  3. Why worsen the office signal-to-noise ratio by asking and expecting an answer?
  5. Let's be honest here: amongst colleagues, this isn't genuine care for someone's wellbeing the way it would be if you were asking a friend. At work, it's virtue-signalling faux concern about someone who you don't care much about. Once you realise this, it becomes obvious that it's about the asker feeling good because "they bothered to ask". I object strongly to this kind of faux concern and find it very patronising. I'm not a supporting actor in the drama of anyone's life and I don't exist so that colleagues can pat themself on the back whilst pretending to care about me.

You are massively, massively overreacting here! It's a social convention, it's good manners!!

When someone comes back from annual leave, it's the done thing to ask if someone had a good break.

If someone comes back from a period of sick leave, you welcome them back and say you hope they are feeling better!

If someone has a bereavement, you acknowledge that on their return (if you haven't already interacted with them at the funeral for instance)

My team manager doesn't do any of this, and the team see it for what it is - fucking bad manners!! It's an acknowledgement, nothing more. But it shows a total lack of consideration not to do it!

Woah there! One of these things is not like the others. You have conflated a failure to acknowledge someone's return to the office with asking invasive questions.

If someone comes back from a period of sick leave, you welcome them back and say you hope they are feeling better!

Yes, do this. "Welcome back. I hope that you are feeling better." is an expression of goodwill. The line manager should ask, in private during the return to work meeting, "How do you feel? Are you well enough to return to work?" as part of due diligence. I would not ask this as a peer because it's invasive, nor would I ask in front of others if I were a manager. "I hope that you are feeling better" and "how are you now?" are not the same thing.

If someone has a bereavement, you acknowledge that on their return (if you haven't already interacted with them at the funeral for instance)

Yes, do this. "I'm sorry for your loss" is a stock expression of sympathy that is appropriate to acknowledge any bereavement. I would not follow up with questions about how the person was feeling in case I made them cry.

When someone comes back from annual leave, it's the done thing to ask if someone had a good break.

No, I advise against this. Same for xmas breaks. Instead: "Welcome back" after a holiday and "Happy New Year" after Xmas both acknowledge the person's return to the office. Do not ask how things went. They will volunteer information if they wish to. If they do, you can make appropriate envious or sympathetic noises before getting back on with your work.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 14/02/2024 23:48

HollyKnight · 14/02/2024 23:36

Unfortunately our manager is part of the problem. She's one of those people who wants to be everyone's friend and therefore only sometimes pulls him up on what he says. An actual conversation went "Hey now, be careful, you don't know who is listening." Which he replied with "Someone needing a good shag I'm sure." Then everyone laughed.

It's a horrible environment, but only for those of us who aren't into that kind of thing. Everyone else thinks it's the funnest workplace ever.

Show quote history

I recommend that you start the process of finding a new job.

This is the kind of sociopathic crap that too many neurotypicals put up with as "banter" and makes me wish I could buy an island and turn it into a refuge for neurodivergent women. But apparently I'm in the wrong because I don't want to treat people like that nor be treated like that.

Runnerinthenight · 14/02/2024 23:56

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle That comment about the vast majority of us don't know someone who has been raped is one of the daftest comments I've seen on here.

The vast majority of us have no idea about the experiences of victims of rape and sexual assault, victims of both sexes, because so many victims don't ever talk about it.

So far as conversations about rape and rape alarms in a workplace, absent, police, social services, and the like, where it's part of the work, I can't really see any need to discuss it.

Well if that is one of the "daftest comments" then you have clearly led a very sheltered life!! How fucking rude!

I don't 'knowingly' know anyone who has been raped, thankfully. Rape victims are a minority in the population, and I hope all of them get the support they deserve, although I doubt it.

In all my life, I have ever only known one convicted rapist. I went to school with him - he was older than me. He was convicted of raping his step-daughters.

I have no doubt it's a horrendous experience but please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's the norm, or it's common! It's not!

I have never, ever had such a conversation in the workplace, and would shut it down if I heard it.

Zone2NorthLondon · 14/02/2024 23:56

You know it’s best not to inaccurately generalise as neurotypical thing. Women are socialised into silence,compliance and they may hate it too and feel,they can’t speak up for fear of repercussions. The blame sits with the individual making coarse overbearing “joke” not the neurotypical women you’re having a go at

Runnerinthenight · 14/02/2024 23:59

@VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia

Woah there yourself!!

Your experience has totally warped your norms!

Eightfour · 14/02/2024 23:59

Zone2NorthLondon · 14/02/2024 23:56

You know it’s best not to inaccurately generalise as neurotypical thing. Women are socialised into silence,compliance and they may hate it too and feel,they can’t speak up for fear of repercussions. The blame sits with the individual making coarse overbearing “joke” not the neurotypical women you’re having a go at

Yep. Also not everyone who disagrees with you @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia is neurotypical you know.

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:07

If we were to comply with @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia, none of us would ever fucking interact with any of our colleagues!!!!

Noideawwhatsoccuring · 15/02/2024 00:08

Runnerinthenight · 14/02/2024 22:09

@Noideawwhatsoccuring Why are you quoting a small snippet? Rather than the whole context. or the post I was replying too?

A poster said ‘asking about children is fine’ I pointed it out why talking about a woman’s children is not fine in an environment where non work conversations are deemed offensive. In the specific circumstance the previous posts were discussing.

I quoted the part I wanted to comment on. I will do that if I wish.

In my experience in the workplace, men talk about their children the same as women do. I know my DH has related many funnies in work relating to our children. I don't know why you are making an issue of this. It's not been my experience, so please don't diss my nearly 40 years in the workplace!!

TG where I've worked, people do talk about their personal lives freely and you know what, nobody has ever taken offence. Non-work related conversations have never been offensive. I think that's pretty damn normal!!

Of course you can do what you want.

I can also point out that you rook a small snippet out of context and then decided to comment something that was completely irrelevant.

Your husband relating a funny story also doesn't change the impact children have on women's careers. Your husband telling an occasional funny anecdote, has no impact in what I posted.

Making an issue out of what? I replied to a poster pointing out that if a company says chit chat isn't OK in the work place then is asking about someone's kids isnt ok. Then gave a list of reasons as to why, if a woman felt so inclined (like the complainer in this story) could complain. Then Included a list of reasons someone could feel its inappropriate. Which includes women with children having their career impacted by having children. Which is a fact.

At no point did I say people shouldn't ask after anyones kids. But if you are going ro ask about people's private lives, expect people to ask about yours. And if HR decide questions about private lives aren't OK, then neither is asking about someone's kids.

You decided that I was saying it wasn't OK to ask after people's kids and just randomly decided it was sexist to do so. You quoted me out of context. You took a small snippet, ignored the comment I was replying to. Then decided that the narrative you made up must be wrong be abuse you personally ask after men's kids. And you husband tells an occasional funny story about your kids.

The only person creating an issue, is you. No one 'dissed' your personal experience of asking men about their kids. Or your husband telling a funny story. Or your 40 years in the workplace. But you being in the workplace 40 years clearly doesn't make you an authority on issues facing women in the workplace. Or on what I said and the context of it.

Caththegreat · 15/02/2024 00:09

That amounts to harassment.what an arsehole

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:11

WhatNoUsername · 14/02/2024 23:40

This. People feeling they are able to speak freely and without feeling as if they are constantly walking on eggshells is more important than the feelings of people who get offended at perfectly normal topics of conversation.

I have an anxiety disorder and trauma. I get "triggered" by some very very normal topics of conversation. Dental treatment being one of them. I don't run to HR every time someone talks about dentists. That's my shit to deal with. It's not the responsibility of everyone around me to moderate their behaviour and speech.

Show quote history

At 19, I got fired from my very first job, two days in, and blacklisted at the agency, for "speaking freely" and not "walking on eggshells". I am autistic and was undiagnosed at that time.

Who decides what a "perfectly normal" conversation topic is? Neurotypical people! "Feeling they are able to speak freely" and knowing what constitutes a "perfectly normal" conversation topic is a privilege of being neurotypical that autistic people Do Not Have.

Which is why, when I was last at the dentist (which you have just reminded me of), I thought it was absolutely fine to tell him how I'd asked for the same anaethesia he'd used on my mouth to be used on my cervix at my last IUD fitting. (Someone neurotypical later told me that it wasn't. I still don't understand why.) To me there's no obvious difference between discussing an IUD fitting and discussing a dental procedure. So at work I discuss neither with both being filed under "medical therefore private".

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:12

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:07

If we were to comply with @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia, none of us would ever fucking interact with any of our colleagues!!!!

This would be no bad thing.

Caththegreat · 15/02/2024 00:12

I mean the man saying tic tock

surreygirl1987 · 15/02/2024 00:12

Do you think the context of the flexible working request was key here? Perhaps if it had been sitting side by side at the Christmas party the question would just have been one they found slightly intrusive or upsetting for whatever reason, but in the context of you saying you need/want flexible working, presumably for family reasons, was the question taken to imply that the request was something only a person with children could/would understand?

I thought the same thing.

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:13

@Noideawwhatsoccuring I am not even going to dignify your attack and your rant with a response. Not worth it.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:13

Zone2NorthLondon · 14/02/2024 23:56

You know it’s best not to inaccurately generalise as neurotypical thing. Women are socialised into silence,compliance and they may hate it too and feel,they can’t speak up for fear of repercussions. The blame sits with the individual making coarse overbearing “joke” not the neurotypical women you’re having a go at

It's the line manager's job to stop this, female or male. If she can't do her job properly, she shouldn't have it.

PToosher · 15/02/2024 00:14

On another forum I was told Mumsnet is the 'Loony arsehole of the internet'.
Comments on threads like this make me think that's not inaccurate.

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:14

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 00:12

Runnerinthenight · Today 00:07

If we were to comply with @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia, none of us would ever fucking interact with any of our colleagues!!!!
This would be no bad thing.

On the contrary, it would be a disaster for interpersonal relationships in work!

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:14

Runnerinthenight · 14/02/2024 23:56

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle That comment about the vast majority of us don't know someone who has been raped is one of the daftest comments I've seen on here.

The vast majority of us have no idea about the experiences of victims of rape and sexual assault, victims of both sexes, because so many victims don't ever talk about it.

So far as conversations about rape and rape alarms in a workplace, absent, police, social services, and the like, where it's part of the work, I can't really see any need to discuss it.

Well if that is one of the "daftest comments" then you have clearly led a very sheltered life!! How fucking rude!

I don't 'knowingly' know anyone who has been raped, thankfully. Rape victims are a minority in the population, and I hope all of them get the support they deserve, although I doubt it.

In all my life, I have ever only known one convicted rapist. I went to school with him - he was older than me. He was convicted of raping his step-daughters.

I have no doubt it's a horrendous experience but please don't insult our intelligence by suggesting it's the norm, or it's common! It's not!

I have never, ever had such a conversation in the workplace, and would shut it down if I heard it.

The estimated prevalence of uncaught rapists is around 6% of men. See Lisak and Miller.

fuchsteufelswild · 15/02/2024 00:15

YANBU. If you ask someone about their kids, even if it's relevant to your workplace, you risk getting asked about your own unless the other loves to hear herself talk and has no interest in connection.

We're not robots operating in an emotionally hermetically closed off space, not even at work, no matter the field.
How dare you being reciprocal at work OP? I'd probably apologize to her as long as a situation presented itself, though I very much doubt that it will, so just let it go. Being vulnerable once in a while is not a weakness though, and everyone can be vulnerable at any point. I feel like policing like that could lead to a work environment with a bit of a neurotic tinge.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:15

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:14

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 00:12

Runnerinthenight · Today 00:07

If we were to comply with @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia, none of us would ever fucking interact with any of our colleagues!!!!
This would be no bad thing.

On the contrary, it would be a disaster for interpersonal relationships in work!

Interpersonal relationships don't belong at work.

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 15/02/2024 00:16

Zone2NorthLondon · 14/02/2024 23:56

You know it’s best not to inaccurately generalise as neurotypical thing. Women are socialised into silence,compliance and they may hate it too and feel,they can’t speak up for fear of repercussions. The blame sits with the individual making coarse overbearing “joke” not the neurotypical women you’re having a go at

The bit about not assuming neurotypicality is a fair point and I take it onboard. It is statistically extremely likely in any workplace that most staff are neurotypical, but you are correct that they might not all be.

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:18

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 00:15

Runnerinthenight · Today 00:14

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · Today 00:12

Runnerinthenight · Today 00:07

If we were to comply with @VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia, none of us would ever fucking interact with any of our colleagues!!!!
This would be no bad thing.

On the contrary, it would be a disaster for interpersonal relationships in work!
Interpersonal relationships don't belong at work.

I couldn't disagree more!! Having a positive working relationship with colleagues makes the work environment so much more positive, and aids collaboration.

Runnerinthenight · 15/02/2024 00:19

So, why do so many organisations engage in team building, I wonder???!!!

Noideawwhatsoccuring · 15/02/2024 00:20

VitoCorleoneOfMNMafia · 14/02/2024 23:42

Woah there! One of these things is not like the others. You have conflated a failure to acknowledge someone's return to the office with asking invasive questions.

If someone comes back from a period of sick leave, you welcome them back and say you hope they are feeling better!

Yes, do this. "Welcome back. I hope that you are feeling better." is an expression of goodwill. The line manager should ask, in private during the return to work meeting, "How do you feel? Are you well enough to return to work?" as part of due diligence. I would not ask this as a peer because it's invasive, nor would I ask in front of others if I were a manager. "I hope that you are feeling better" and "how are you now?" are not the same thing.

If someone has a bereavement, you acknowledge that on their return (if you haven't already interacted with them at the funeral for instance)

Yes, do this. "I'm sorry for your loss" is a stock expression of sympathy that is appropriate to acknowledge any bereavement. I would not follow up with questions about how the person was feeling in case I made them cry.

When someone comes back from annual leave, it's the done thing to ask if someone had a good break.

No, I advise against this. Same for xmas breaks. Instead: "Welcome back" after a holiday and "Happy New Year" after Xmas both acknowledge the person's return to the office. Do not ask how things went. They will volunteer information if they wish to. If they do, you can make appropriate envious or sympathetic noises before getting back on with your work.

Show quote history

This is one of the most bizarre things I have ever read in here.

I think you clearly have some sort of massively fear around work interaction tions due to your own experiences.

You are assuming some massive things and you arenr the authority on what's OK to ask.

'I am sorry for your loss' pisses lots of people off. But we dont get angry and complain because we know it comes from a place of kindness. The same as people asking if we had a good break, even if it was shit or we have a poor hime life.

You have made such a convoluted list, based on what you personally want and started labelling it as acceptable or nor acceptable, it would come a ro point where Co workers wouldn't talk at all. But this is all personal to you.

I have been in an abusive relationship and never minded people asking. if I had a good break. I did get pissed off with people saying 'I am sorry to hear about your mum dying' so your personal preferences wouldn't work for me. But I wouldn't make a complaint because it would be ridiculous. We are all different and just because something upsets us, doesn't mean someone else did something wrong.