to be shocked that TERFs should be raging against kids clothing?

[Preggopreggo]

You cannot be anti-trans whilst also perpetuating a binary with your own children? AIBU?

Surely if the craziness around ‘boy clothes/toys’ and ‘girl clothes/toys’ ended and gender differences became less distinct, then far fewer children would grow up with gender dysphoria and want to transition?

I know very little about all this, so I may be wrong and just can’t find the threads. Please point me in the right direction if this has been discussed already 🙏

@popebishop
I suspect the OP is too busy gorging on Mum's pancakes - or maybe they're 'educating themselves' on FWR.

I do rage about this too (although I reject the term TERF, I do not exclude trans people in my feminism - I include trans men and exclude trans women).

There’s plenty on the internet pointing out the gender bias in children’s slogan t shirts, the length of shorts, the availability of pockets. I go out of my way to buy STEM toys for the female children in my life and toys geared towards nurturing (like tea sets and dolls) for the boys.

It might be that the OP isn’t trying to provoke. I once had a frustrating Twitter conversation with a person from the US who thought that Gender Critical people liked gender stereotypes, er, because they thought they were critical 🙄

This person was non-binary and explained why by telling me they were “AMAB” but liked wearing skirts! And yet they thought we were the regressive ones! I suggested they could wear skirts and still be a boy and linked them to about a million 80s New Romantics 😂

It might be that the OP isn’t trying to provoke. I once had a frustrating Twitter conversation with a person from the US who thought that Gender Critical people liked gender stereotypes, er, because they thought they were critical

Ah that's brilliant! Gender is Critically Important! I've heard it all now.

Why are we taking away gender?

@IAmAWarriorPrincessHonestGuv I wonder about this too. If a boy likes dancing, it doesn't make him a girl. If a girl likes football, it doesn't make her a boy

I often think the trans movement actually reinforces gender stereotypes eg biological male wants to wear a dress = OK wirh me, but doesn't make him a woman

In fact, I was wondering the other day what a 5 yr old boy, for example, thinks a girl is.

Don't parents explain/show their children that girls and boys have different genitalia?

It's really not complicated

If a boy likes dancing, it doesn't make him a girl. If a girl likes football, it doesn't make her a boy

Obviously not. Is there ANY child or adult that actually thinks that?!

Where have you been?!

what on earth?!

OP are you maybe confusing mumsnet with other forums? and not sure what you think feminism is?

So what does that mean in practice? Do you dress your boy in a skirt or does your girl never wear a skirt? Or do both own exactly the same range of clothing and sometimes wear skirts?

Does your girl have short hair or does your boy wear bows etc?

Toys is one thing but I'd say that after babyhood, 99% of children own and therefore wear clothes marketed to their sex. Toddlers are not buying their own clothes therefore someone (their parents probably) is "pushing them into gender specific clothing".

Or do you just mean girls clothes that aren't pink and frilly?

I don't see boys in skirts or even girls with short hair ever really so can only think that people who don't agree with these gender specific things are very rare!

Jazz Jenning’s parents. The parents on the Mermaids chat board.

Eh?

I tried to have a similar discussion with a group of extreme trans activist protestors at a women's rally while I was standing hand in hand in a line around women to protect the women speaking. (the police were interspersed between our line trying to keep these protestors back a few metres). They honestly believed that we wanted to enforce stereotypes and that they were the ones who were 'bending' them. All the women laughed and we tried to point out the truth but those young protestors were too busy literally screaming and yelling to bother to listen.

But yeah. It is quite hilarious the complete twisted things that these activists think because someone told them it was true and they never thought to check the facts.

People can wear what they want, traditional in recent years clothing for their sex or not.
It doesn't change their sex if a man wears a dress or a woman wears baggy tracksuits though.

Thank you @GelatoPistacchio, this is what I meant.

My post was clumsy, inadvertently goady and posted in the wrong place, for that I am sorry.

It’s obvious that gender critical feminists are critical of binary children’s clothing and aim to dress their children neutrally, as lots of PPs show.

But I’m wondering if some of those who have embraced the TERF label are really very R or even F, if they perpetuate the gender binary through their own children’s clothing choices. And of course there’s the paradox of being trans exclusionary and feminist that has been pointed out by PP.

Let Toys be Toys is a fantastic campaign - but that’s aimed at marketing. I’m wondering why there isn’t a tidal wave of parents deconstructing the gender binary on a personal level.

It’s clear that outlooks like that of Mermaids reinforces gender stereotypes, but I assume there aren’t many mermaid supporters here to ask, hence why the question wasn’t directed at them.

And my point is, if so-called TERFism (for want of a better term) is becoming mainstream, why is this approach still so rare amongst parents?

Sorry @Fionaville, I did take your words out of context.

I will leave this thread now and return to gorging on my Mum’s pancakes

Honestly all the parents I know who consider TERF a compliment are like me in this respect! Might see a big difference in the coming years.

I agree with your main point though, I'd happily see the gender binary for childhood smashed.

@Preggopreggo

Can you tell us all what you expect women who are campaigning for women’s rights to be doing exactly to ‘deconstruct the binary’ of clothes that we are not doing already?

Your updates don’t seem to be have gained any clarity and you still seem to be struggling to grasp the basics.

“I’m wondering why there isn’t a tidal wave of parents deconstructing the gender binary on a personal level.”

What do you see this entail? Please be specific.

Your post is still clearly accusing women of not acting the way you expect on an action you still lack understanding of. So tell us what you expect feminists to be doing.

Do you have children? Because frankly my own child was brought clothes of both sexes whenever they wanted them. However, from 3 years old insisted on copying other friends and did this until covid lock downs when they, as a teenager, developed their own style. But have you tried to dress a child who absolutely refuses to wear clothes they hate and has melt downs because they feel they will be judged for the clothes you have purchased over the ones they wanted?

Children have their own tastes. Their own style and personalities.

Plus sometimes they have a need to fit in. I know of not one feminist who would advocate distressing a child to enforce the feminist view of clothing, unless the clothing was immediately risking harm. Eg the clothing was inappropriate for the weather, or for the planned activity.

Again, as I said above, if enough stores in an area are offering a wide selection of clothes, what is there to protest? Do you expect feminists to protest because a store has the clothes separated into girls and boys clothes? A store layout that makes it easy for others to find clothing that works to suit a human body type in cut and size? No? Then What? What do you expect?

Or are you trying to say that feminists should photograph their boys in dresses and shirts and splash that all over the media using their children to spread a message that ‘clothes are just clothes’. Is the fact that feminists are saying their children are already happily wearing whatever they want at home not enough, and do you expect feminists to actively promote their children on line to prove at point?

Because if this is the case, maybe you really don’t have much idea about feminism. I don’t know any radical feminist who uses their children as media props. And certainly you wouldn’t have even a smidge of understanding that no feminist at this point in time is exposing their children to abuse from extreme trans activists doxxing and attacking their children.

Or do you think feminists are not modeling everyday that clothing is a personal choice and you can be a woman and still wear whatever you wish? Because all being a woman means is being an adult human female? Because if this is what you are talking about, you haven’t been paying attention at all.

Or maybe you don’t know who these ‘terfs’ are.

Please enlighten feminists as to what they should be doing .

why is this approach still so rare amongst parents?
The answer is boring.

Sexism is deeply, deeply ingrained among entire societies. More than you ever thought.

We have people on here (and everywhere) day in day out saying that girls are just like THIS, boys are just like THAT. Their parents thought it, their grandparents thought it. The same behaviour is viewed differently when a boy does it vs a girl (authoritative/diva?)

And it's hard to disentangle socialisation from natural differences. Choices aren't made in a vacuum. And people aren't that interested in anything that doesn't confirm what they already believe.

You obviously have not had this term used at you as a form of abuse. I suggest that you do find a better way to describe the group you refer to. Many of us reject it. Some people attempt to reclaim it as a source of defiance. Some people who are new to the movement may adopt it because they haven’t yet had it used as abuse.

“if so-called TERFism (for want of a better term) is becoming mainstream, why is this approach still so rare amongst parents?”

Again this sentence is unclear in what you mean.

Are you saying TERFs are not mainstream? Well, no ‘Radical Feminism’ is not mainstream. Gosh! Who knew?

Or are you saying that the majority of parents don’t agree with the radical feminists that sex is immutable but that children should be allowed to be whatever they want and do whatever they want regardless of their sex? This might also be true. But then again, I know of few parents who impose gender stereotypes on their children, and many of those do it via religion. So, I would say that many parents do it without ‘being TERFS’.

Because as we say, the term TERF was never accurate at all.

Haven't read the whole thread but have read all the ops posts and don't really understand what they're getting at.

I'm not raging about clothes because as a peri menopausal woman I've got to conserve my energy and save my raging for things that will make a difference.
What are we meant to be doing? Picketing M&S?

Beyond not dressing our own girls in clothes that say 'be kind' and 'good vibes only' and boys in camo and making sure they're dressed comfortably and practically what else should we be doing?

When let clothes be clothes and let toys be toys started off we didn't have a whole host of gender confusion in the mix. The social context has now moved on. Rest assured that if you have a 14 year old son who is struggling with fitting in and looking for his tribe, there'll be a new rainbow tribe willing to love bomb him if only he is prepared to question his gender identity. That time he dressed as a princess when he was 4 will take on a whole new significance as he looks back over his history for any clues that point him to why he might feel a bit of a square peg. I'm certainly not sayining equal opportunity for clothes should be discouraged but for some it will now form part of a new backstory as they head off down an erroneous and damaging path.

If society stops telling little boys that they can’t be pink glittery unicorns then surely fewer little boys will ask to be girls?

So you are gender critical then op? Your posts do seem rather terfy.

Well done for seeing how bad gender identity ideology is by it's insistence that boys wearing dresses or girls having short hair etc somehow magically means they must actually be the opposite sex.

Gender critical feminists don't care what clothes children wear or want to enforce sexist sex role stereotypes.

Those stereotypes are however, required and enforced by genderists so they can convince themselves that a grown man is magically a woman because he wears a dress or 'feels' feminine.

If society stops telling little boys that they can’t be pink glittery unicorns then surely fewer little boys will ask to be girls??

There seems to be an awful lot of noise about children transitioning, but so little about gendering of children.

Gendered toys etc. is an easy, tangible campaign target. Simply boycott brands that perpetuate this, yet it seems to have the status of a fringe issue. Let Toys be Toys looks great but I can’t see a mention of the implications for gender identity.

This really does show that OP has not been actually reading, or is trying to misrepresent what feminists are attempting to do.

NO ONE should be telling little boys that being a pink glittery unicorn means they are a girl in the first place.

The feminist perspective would be:

Anyone can be a pink glittery unicorn. Anyone. It doesn't make the person a girl if they are a boy.

And this is something that feminists have been saying very loudly now for decades. But even more loudly now for the past years. If OP hasn't seen this, then OP has not been paying attention.