to be shocked that TERFs should be raging against kids clothing?

[Preggopreggo]

You cannot be anti-trans whilst also perpetuating a binary with your own children? AIBU?

Surely if the craziness around ‘boy clothes/toys’ and ‘girl clothes/toys’ ended and gender differences became less distinct, then far fewer children would grow up with gender dysphoria and want to transition?

I know very little about all this, so I may be wrong and just can’t find the threads. Please point me in the right direction if this has been discussed already 🙏

We are! Haven’t you seen the Let Clothes Be Clothes Twitter/X account? There’s loads on the internet about clothing - the designs (pink unicorns for girls, dinos for boys), the length of the shorts (guess which are shorter) and the shoes (ballerina, frail little things with a thin sole for girls) and chunky, robust shoes for boys who, of course, are the on,y ones who want to climb and go on adventures 🙄

Last time I checked it wasnt "TERFs" that thought sex changed according to what clothing they wore.

I am a feminist and would fit most definitions of TERF even though I hate the term.

As with most women like me, I hate gendered clothing / stereotypes.

OP: why aren't you all raving against gendered clothing
Mumsnet: We are
OP: but gendered clothing and toys are awful why aren't you campaigning against them
Mumsnet: we are

I'm so confused!

I rage that it is so difficult to buy clothing for babies and toddlers that isn't pink or blue. I try hard to buy neutral colours for them.

But it doesn't matter what colour clothes they wear as babies! Who cares?

Their clothes have no bearing on anything, certainly not their biological sex.

Your point is clumsily put OP but I get what you mean. Most feminists dislike how gendered clothing is for children (e.g. tight trousers/leggings/tops for girls, loose ones for boys, glittery impractical shoes for girls, robust ones for boys). There have been active campaigns on these issues for years, but it's difficult to persuade parents from choosing highly gendered options (or from allowing their DC to pick them). It requires societal change, which is usually glacially slow on women's issues, especially when many don't see the harm.

Trans issues and the clash between trans rights and women's/children's rights are a relatively recent explosion, and the pushback has had to be relatively swift and loud. The clothing issue is a longer-running topic that runs alongside it.

My daughter has always known that she's a girl and her brother is a boy - they have different genitalia!

Their clothes and the toys they shared had no bearing on this. I honestly don't know where the op is going with this

Freddie Mercury
David Bowie
Adam Ant
Prince
Boy George

Clothes and sequins and hair and heels and makeup…breaking the stereotypes of their gendered roles. I’d say that they are some of the poster boys proving that you can be male and wear whatever you like.

I rage that it is so difficult to buy clothing for babies and toddlers that isn't pink or blue. I try hard to buy neutral colours for them

It has got harder, rather than easier in the last couple of decades. Which as a second wave feminist, I find very depressing.

@Preggopreggo I hope that you have realised that you are incorrect on many counts in your posts. And I agree with others that you really should be reading threads instead of headlines and actively engaging with them.

And please stop calling feminists 'Terfs'.

Either way. I recommend that you read up the Mermaids Barbie and GI Joe continuum. It is most certainly not 'terfs' who are out there declaring that clothes make a girl or boy. Have look at this shite and tell us that feminists fighting to abolish gender stereotypes are perpetuating those 'gender stereotypes'.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/questions-school-mermaids-training-teachers/

Perhaps what you are referring to is that feminists are also trying to point out the fetishisation of male adults who have autogynephilia. A paraphilia where that male person is sexually aroused with being treated or seeing themselves 'as a woman'. Meaning that when they don on what they, not feminists, but those male people, consider 'women's' clothes they find it sexually arousing.

Do you think that women shouldn't be raising the alarm about that? Is that what this thread is a reaction to?

Ever noticed just what clothes many of these male people choose as their 'woman' clothes? They are not dressing in a comfy t-shirt and jean and just getting on with life. It is all too often highly sexualised clothes. What they perceive is the epitome of womanhood. Because to 'some' of them the value of a woman is the fuckability and then secondly as a resource to be exploited in different ways.

I do suggest you go and find threads on the Sex and Gender board and read, read, read. Sure it takes time and effort. But it seems you have not even grasped the basics of what is happening. Read links from trans allies, read links from who ever posts them and then look for links 'debunking' those links and then ask questions.

And please, when you ask questions, don't assume you know what you are fucking talking about and insult and denigrate the very people who you want to answer your questions. It is hardly a good way to encourage any one to engage with you.

What's the point of this thread? It's full of unsubstantiated speculation 😵‍💫

On the other hand, there is a huge range of clothing that is available to purchase new or second hand in the UK. Why does there need to be a campaign specifically addressing this when no-one is forced to purchase from one place? I have found clothing that is gender non-specific in outlets quite happily.

Why should feminists have to campaign for something that is already available?

Considering just how many of the feminist leaders are gender non-conforming in any case, they are quite adequately modelling abolishing gendered clothing every time they leave the house and every time they appear in media. Feminists are not about to demand people buy particular styles for children. They are going to suggest that children should be free to wear whatever they want within reason.

Now, campaigning against a particular item of clothing that is overly sexualised or has an inappropriate message that can be immediately removed from sale, yes. That is a worthwhile and easy short-term win that is protecting children.

So-called 'terfs' (it's really MERFs - MALE Exclusionary etc) are NOT 'anti-trans'. They are pro-womens rights. So the whole premise of your post is based on a falsehood.

I’m tempted to report this thread due to the inflammatory use of the word TERF - clearly meant as an insult in this context.

But actually yes, I do object to hugely gendered items and statements insulting girls written on their clothes etc. but my daughter wore blue, my sons wear “girly colours” and plenty of her hand me downs and one of my boys loves his dolly and baby toy when his sister couldn’t have given two hoots about dolls etc.

doesn’t mean either of them are the opposite sex though does it!

As a mother of two boys- and a girl- all this predatory men stuff really worries me. Yes educate your boys, but what about predatory girls? They do exist. I am terrified about girls who use the power of false accusations. Lets educate our boys and girls. Not all boys are predators and not all girls are victims. Heres an idea lets join together for the better good.

Nobody is anti trans, op. Stop shit stirring.

Absolutely! Because as feminists, those being called 'terfs' campaign for protections for ALL female people. Even those female people who have chosen to never be called 'women' again. They need those protections still because they are female.

Male people who declare they are female need their own unique protections perhaps, and should spend time campaigning for them and making sure they do not conflict with the needs and rights of female people.

I use 'male people' and 'female people' to avoid being deleted and for clarity.

The term 'terf' was never really accurate at all.

I have raged at the sexualisation of children in some clothes but have no idea what op is going on about

False accusations are LESS THAN 1%. Less than one percent. 98% of all assaults are by males on women and girls. So lets cut this 'whataboutery' crap blaming women and girls. There are almost no predatory girls. Your post is disgraceful victim-blaming about something that doesn't really exist.

That's a very diplomatic way of saying that their post is shite!

My DS loves pink and purple and sparkles, he waltzes around in all kinds of fabulous outfits. It doesn't make him any less of a boy though, and anyone who thinks it does has another think coming.

Oh god, shut up.

Um…

gender critical means you don’t believe in things like boys clothing or girls toys. It means that people shouldn’t be constrained by sex-based expectations. It means that a dress is simply an article of clothing that can be worn by a man or a woman.

Yes educate your boys, but what about predatory girls? They do exist. I am terrified about girls who use the power of false accusations

🙄

I am afraid OP that you've got hopelessly muddled up somewhere.

Oh of course! Half term!