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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be annoyed my DM was refused access with pram?

330 replies

EmeraldA129 · 09/02/2024 16:36

We have a local cafe we go to fairly regularly. Normally myself, my DM & DD who is 4 months & in a pram. We almost always have lunch, juice, coffee & often cake too.

Sometimes my DM comes to look after DD for a few hours & will almost certainly go to the same cafe, sometimes for a full lunch though sometimes just a cake & coffee.

I’ve given them 5* reviews for being so welcoming & friendly. We like the team, we like the food & there are a number of tables that can have a pram sitting next to them without causing hassle to the cafe or other customers.

on Sunday my DM went with my DD & although there were tables available the man that works there (we think owner/ manager) said ‘no, sorry, it’s fine to come in with that when it’s quiet, not when we are busy’. My DM asked if he was being serious, he said yes & showed the person behind her to a table that was free. Other people were leaving & trying to offer their table to my DM, but the man said no, it wasn’t suitable.

we’ve had lunch there many times before DD was born, but have been in at least 10 times since she was born. Previously I’ve always felt like a valued customer but now it feels like they’ve been willing to let us give them custom when they need the extra takings.

My DM won’t be going back & I really don’t want to either. Also want to leave them a new 1* review to balance out my previously glowing one.

This happened 5 days ago so it is clearly really bothering me that I’m posting about it now.

AIBU to be annoyed?

OP posts:
EmeraldA129 · 09/02/2024 23:30

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:13

No they weren’t. Your mum could have taken the baby out to f the pram and folded it or left it outside. She chose not to.

Sorry, but no alternative solution was offered, it was just a flat no, not today.

tbh, my DM probably wouldn’t have gone in if they’d said they didn’t have space for the pram but she could fold it up & hold the baby… but if that had been offered she would have thought they were at least trying to accommodate her & my DD & would have not been left feeling the way she does. If that had been an option I would never have started this thread.

OP posts:
Tahinii · 09/02/2024 23:34

SwordToFlamethrower · 09/02/2024 23:27

Does this policy apply for wheelchair users I wonder?

This offensive statement has been repeated more than once on this thread. If you’re going to belittle people who are wheelchair users, at least check this hasn’t been said multiple times already!

Zone2NorthLondon · 09/02/2024 23:35

SwordToFlamethrower · 09/02/2024 23:27

Does this policy apply for wheelchair users I wonder?

Wheelchair users are covered by DDA as a protected group
Prams are not a protected category and don’t need to be

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:36

SwordToFlamethrower · 09/02/2024 23:27

Does this policy apply for wheelchair users I wonder?

No, because that would be illegal. Also wheelchair users spend money, babies don’t. The woman wasn’t told her and the baby couldn’t go in, just that they couldn’t go in with an unfolded pram.

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:37

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:36

No, because that would be illegal. Also wheelchair users spend money, babies don’t. The woman wasn’t told her and the baby couldn’t go in, just that they couldn’t go in with an unfolded pram.

I agree that the wheelchair comments are stupid. However OP has repeatedly said that they couldn’t go in, folding down pram wasn’t given an option.

ImpossiblePeaches · 09/02/2024 23:40

KThnxBye · 09/02/2024 22:14

Yes, you can tell when story time is on because there are usually about 20 prams outside the library. They are not allowed inside the library or there would be no room for people.

Like they are not allowed into the leisure center, or into the primary school, like they aren’t allowed into the theatre or the Christmas fair or any other number of occasions that are sprinkled into life regularly enough that even if you live in a big city, it’s a good idea to have a plan b.

I can only assume that you live in a little village, with small facilities?
Midweek our local library is always full of prams (inside!), as is the leisure centre, cinema, theatre etc etc.

IkeaMeatballGravy · 09/02/2024 23:40

He'll be the first to start bleating on about being a struggling small business when all his mum and granny customers are enjoying thier coffees in spacious chain cafes during the week. More fool him.

Coffee out is a fun luxury, I don't find it comfortable to sit and drink a coffee with DS in the sling, nor do I want to faff about with a crappy umbrella stroller when I have a lovely pram. If an owner of a cafe with space for prams made me unwelcome at the weekend I wouldn't give them my custom in the week either.

Definitely change your review to warn other mums, am experience like that could really affect a lonely mum struggling with PND.

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:44

EmeraldA129 · 09/02/2024 23:30

Sorry, but no alternative solution was offered, it was just a flat no, not today.

tbh, my DM probably wouldn’t have gone in if they’d said they didn’t have space for the pram but she could fold it up & hold the baby… but if that had been offered she would have thought they were at least trying to accommodate her & my DD & would have not been left feeling the way she does. If that had been an option I would never have started this thread.

Why does it need to be offered? The pram was clearly the problem… she could have just sorted that.

Itwasafterallallaboutme · 09/02/2024 23:46

naisspray · 09/02/2024 18:40

Do you say the same about disabled people?

Thank you, @naisspray that is a very good point. My wheelchair is a battery powered one (but not a mobility scooter), which I have to use in order to be mobile. It isn't an all singing and dancing one, but it is quite close to that! It reclines quite a long way, and can also go up and down, it has built in lights, and a removable head rest. Because of all of that, and because I am fat a larger person, it is quite a bit bigger and chunkier than an average sized wheelchair.

Before we go into previously unknown to us hospitality venues, my carer will go inside and check that the place has enough room for my chair, and that the accessible toilet is adequate - people might be surprised at how many accessible toilets aren't adequate - even ones that are only "Radar Key" ones.
If my carer finds a venue that just isn't suitable for me and my chair, and as long as it doesn't advertise that it is suitable for wheelchair bound disabled people, then we just shrug our shoulders and keep on looking for somewhere that is more appropriate.

As you may imagine - maybe you are disabled yourself or a carer of someone who is disabled so don't need to use your imagination - I have certain cafés and restaurants at my usual haunts that I know very well and what they are like. I have my favourites amongst them. If like the OP, I had a favourite one, one that I had been to at very busy times before, and I had never caused any awkward problems when I was there, then I would be fuming if I went one busy day and they suddenly told me my chair was too big, and would cause a hazard if I came in and sat at a table, especially if my "usual" table was available. I would definitely be writing them a 1 star review, and if the manager or owner didn't like it, or think it was fair, then they have a right to reply to me, explaining to any other potential customers how and why I was being unreasonable.

@EmeraldA129 please do write that one star review, after all you have plenty of experience of that particular establishment. At the very least, if they no longer want the custom of families with prams and pushchairs, then you will be saving other families the time and disappointment of going there when they are not wanted.

NB: In case this is useful information for wheelchair users, last year whilst on holiday near the Lake District we went to Hawkeshead (village/small town) because there is a good shop there selling good walking/hiking, and to keep yourself protected from unfriendly weather when you are in a wheelchair, clothes etc. The last time we were there was before Covid, and they used to have a nice café within the shop, that not only accommodated wheelchair users, but also walkers with their dogs in tow. I happen to love dogs so I always liked that aspect of it too.

Well you can probably tell that after we had parked the car (extortionate parking fees, but it is the Lake District) and gone across the road into the shop, we couldn't find the café, so slightly (very, very, slightly) resembling Stan Laurel and the way he used to scratch the top of his head if he was confused about something, we asked someone if they had moved the café - well they had, in fact they had REmoved it completely. We were gutted, but decided to find another café, or even a pub where we could have some refreshments (we had been driving around Windermere etc beforehand, but didn't stop there because we were looking forward to going into the café at the shop in Hawkshead, and then possibly buying me a new wind and waterproof jacket.

So off we went in search of a place for refreshments, and yes, we found a few, but all but one of them had a massive stone step up into them, which there was no way even a step climbing wheelchair could have got into them - I think anyone who had difficulty walking and maybe used walking sticks, would have struggled to climb those steps. The only one we found that didn't have an enormous step, was on a corner plot, on a twisty hill, which also had a terribly steep and uneven camber - maybe I could have managed it without my wheelchair tumbling over sideways, but I was so fed-up by that time that I didn't want to even risk trying it! I can imagine that anyone with anything like a large and heavy buggy, or maybe a twin buggy, and or an extra small child with them, might have quite a struggle on their hands too.

Well what a waste of parking money that was (to be fair it might have been free parking for blue badge holders - I can't remember - but my blue badge had just run out, and the new one hadn't arrived by the time we went on holiday).

Oh and I am not blaming the village of Hawkeshead for being so inaccessible, it is what makes these towns and villages amongst the stunning mountain scenery of the Lake District, so amazing and beautiful to visit in the first place! But I am a bit disappointed with the large shop there, their café had been very popular before Covid, but then so many hospitality venues have had to close because of Covid 19 and Brexit, so in the end those establishments have my sympathy as well as my frustration.

Please don't moan to me about the length of this, you could see how long it was before you started - I think that most people who recognise my username just skip over my posts... 🙈

ZephrineDrouhin · 09/02/2024 23:46

I know of a café which completely bans children. It is wildly popular. The joy of not having crying babies, toddlers running on the loose keening at the top of their lungs and not being hemmed in by prams is obviously very attractive to many people. There isn't a highchair to be seen.

ImustLearn2Cook · 09/02/2024 23:47

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:16

What’s the reason that the wheelchair user cant be a return customer?

Also my point about the cafe being unreasonable was because the grandma is a return customer. You are making the same point as me - except you are implying the wheelchair user wouldn’t be a return customer, I don’t understand that.

I did not imply any such thing. The customer in a wheelchair being a repeat customer does not change the point that I made about your insufficient math equation you made to highlight how “daft” you thought T1Dmama’s pp was.

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:48

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:37

I agree that the wheelchair comments are stupid. However OP has repeatedly said that they couldn’t go in, folding down pram wasn’t given an option.

You don’t need to be told to fold a pram or leave it outside! Just look at the space, realise it’s crammed and take the baby out of the pram.

Im a wheelchair user, I have to look at if I can fit in somewhere and when I see I can’t then wait or go somewhere else frequently, I don’t need the staff to tell me how to deal with the problem.

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:48

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:44

Why does it need to be offered? The pram was clearly the problem… she could have just sorted that.

She is 78, so maybe she can’t just ‘sort it out’ navigating collapsing someone else’s large pram whilst holding a 4 month old baby and feeling embarrassed being rejected by the cafe owner. Not all 78 year olds are that fit and able.

IkeaMeatballGravy · 09/02/2024 23:49

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:44

Why does it need to be offered? The pram was clearly the problem… she could have just sorted that.

Why was the pram a problem though? If there was room for it why should she have to faff about folding it, then try to enjoy a hot drink and a cake while balancing a baby?

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:51

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:48

You don’t need to be told to fold a pram or leave it outside! Just look at the space, realise it’s crammed and take the baby out of the pram.

Im a wheelchair user, I have to look at if I can fit in somewhere and when I see I can’t then wait or go somewhere else frequently, I don’t need the staff to tell me how to deal with the problem.

Genuinly, that’s good for you. Not all wheelchair users are you, and not all 78 year old women could manage collapsing the pram or holding the baby while drinking coffee, as OP has already said. One persons capabilities don’t mean someone else can do the same as I’m sure you are well aware.

PancakeTuesdayiscoming · 09/02/2024 23:53

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Itwasafterallallaboutme · 09/02/2024 23:54

Tahinii · 09/02/2024 23:34

This offensive statement has been repeated more than once on this thread. If you’re going to belittle people who are wheelchair users, at least check this hasn’t been said multiple times already!

Why, and/or how, does that question belittle wheelchair users? I thought it (and the other similar ones) were quite nice and caring actually.

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:55

@IkeaMeatballGravy

Well, since we weren’t there to see the space, I’m taking it at face value that it was too crowded for the pram since that’s what the manager said.

It could have been an excuse, maybe the lady does/did something else that upset the staff, but we can’t possibly know that.

BubziOwl · 09/02/2024 23:58

Paddy667788 · 09/02/2024 22:59

I think it was really rude, can’t agree with the others saying buggies are annoying etc. They’re not?!

When you’re in a cafe you’re not there to have a walk around, are you? Once you’re in your seat, you’re largely sitting in your seat, unless you go to the toilet and then leave. It’s not a constant obstacle course experience?

God people forget we were all babies and children once. They seem to find the existence of them so inconvenient in this country!

I agree.

I've worked in a hell of a lot of cafes in my time and never encountered a dislike for the mum market amongst the owners or managers - quite the opposite, in fact.

Theminer · 10/02/2024 00:00

TeaKitten · 09/02/2024 23:51

Genuinly, that’s good for you. Not all wheelchair users are you, and not all 78 year old women could manage collapsing the pram or holding the baby while drinking coffee, as OP has already said. One persons capabilities don’t mean someone else can do the same as I’m sure you are well aware.

Yes, but having a baby in a pram isn’t a protected characteristic, the cafe is under no obligation to allow it in if they feel there isn’t space.

If the lady couldn’t get the baby out of the pram so couldn’t go in the cafe that’s a shame, but that’s life sometimes.

There is limited space in any room- that room didn’t have enough space for a pram. What should the manager have done? Asked other people to leave to make space?

TeaKitten · 10/02/2024 00:05

Theminer · 10/02/2024 00:00

Yes, but having a baby in a pram isn’t a protected characteristic, the cafe is under no obligation to allow it in if they feel there isn’t space.

If the lady couldn’t get the baby out of the pram so couldn’t go in the cafe that’s a shame, but that’s life sometimes.

There is limited space in any room- that room didn’t have enough space for a pram. What should the manager have done? Asked other people to leave to make space?

No but as there were empty tables and people leaving and offering the lady their tables, the manager could have actually taken a minute to have a look who was leaving and if any spare chairs could be moved etc so that his regular customer could see he was trying, and regretful they were too busy this time. Rather than giving a flat no and potentially getting rid of 2 regular customers. It’s just basic customer service. Regular customers and good relations and reputation are what keeps businesses going in the quiet times. This manager made himself look as though he didn’t care about that, that’s poor customer service. So the OP messaging the cafe to discuss how this made her mother feel is proportionate, which is why I suggested it. What is the issue with that?

IkeaMeatballGravy · 10/02/2024 00:08

Theminer · 09/02/2024 23:55

@IkeaMeatballGravy

Well, since we weren’t there to see the space, I’m taking it at face value that it was too crowded for the pram since that’s what the manager said.

It could have been an excuse, maybe the lady does/did something else that upset the staff, but we can’t possibly know that.

Edited

Other customers obviously thought there was enough room as they were siding with OP's mum.

Obviously a cafe owner can choose to turn people away if they want to for whatever reason likewise OP doesn't owe them her custom during the week and she can retract her positive review.

Theminer · 10/02/2024 00:13

TeaKitten · 10/02/2024 00:05

No but as there were empty tables and people leaving and offering the lady their tables, the manager could have actually taken a minute to have a look who was leaving and if any spare chairs could be moved etc so that his regular customer could see he was trying, and regretful they were too busy this time. Rather than giving a flat no and potentially getting rid of 2 regular customers. It’s just basic customer service. Regular customers and good relations and reputation are what keeps businesses going in the quiet times. This manager made himself look as though he didn’t care about that, that’s poor customer service. So the OP messaging the cafe to discuss how this made her mother feel is proportionate, which is why I suggested it. What is the issue with that?

There isn’t an issue with that- I haven’t said that. She should give them the review she thinks they deserve, and email them if it will make her feel better.

I said that since it was the pram that was the issue the obvious thing to do is fold it or leave it outside if she could. If she can’t, then sadly she can’t go in.

The cafe owner (presuming that’s who it is) clearly either doesn’t think that they will refuse to go again because of this, or doesn’t care. Most businesses don’t actually care about their customers feelings, so if they have enough custom they won’t care about this.

If it was the manager that didn’t allow them in, and it isn’t the policy (which it may well be- a lot of places don’t allow prams during busy times) then maybe the owner would be annoyed with the manager for this.

ilovesooty · 10/02/2024 00:18

T1Dmama · 09/02/2024 22:43

Ooh do they also say no to wheelchairs ? They can be pretty bulky too!
Yeah I’d be annoyed too… I’d leave a bad review, I’d complain to the establishment and say you use the place regularly and spend a fortune there…. And I’d take my custom elsewhere!!

Here we go again. Disability and wheelchair use is not the same as a baby in a pram.

LilyBartsHatShop · 10/02/2024 00:19

ZephrineDrouhin · 09/02/2024 23:46

I know of a café which completely bans children. It is wildly popular. The joy of not having crying babies, toddlers running on the loose keening at the top of their lungs and not being hemmed in by prams is obviously very attractive to many people. There isn't a highchair to be seen.

Yes, I think if I read a review saying "this cafe doesn't allow buggies on a Sunday morning" that would tip the balance in a café's favour for a place to have brunch out.
I also wonder if there were soon to arrive brunch bookings that the manager had to honour.
OP, I think you're best off talking to someone at the café. Don't be snarky, just describe your disappointment at being treated dismissively when you and your mother had come to think of that café as your local. It will encourage the owner / manager to lift his game and think about the wellbeing of new mums who want to participate in community life.