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To be so angry that people like this are in charge of SEND budgets

472 replies

Dalmatron · 04/02/2024 23:38

Has anyone seen the thread on twitter/X about the Warwickshire Councillors at the scrutiny panel for SEND spending?

I am so angry!

Some quotes:
(Talking about institutions) "They had better ways of dealing with them at that time. Let's go back to those ways"
"I don't know what the fix is, I just look back at years gone by those people by whatever means, it was right at the time".
"Is it something in the water?"
"Families are swapping tips to get diagnosed"
"Why are there so many people jumping out with these needs? Where were they when I was at school?"
"Why do so many people have this badge of SEND and special needs?"
"To stop this spend fix the problem at source"
"the plea of a Mother saying Little Willy has ADHD when Little Willy is just really badly behaved & needs some form of strict correction"

How can people like this be in these positions? Why has nothing been done to remove them or apologise? I felt sick watching these clips.

Warwickshire Council thread

https://twitter.com/ElissaNoves/status/1753470720569385023?t=0kxU1GYJe35FgkzxzjTuyA&s=19

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 11:41

@JennyWren87 no, I don’t either.

pasteloblong · 05/02/2024 11:42

I was born in the 70s and had unidentified adhd and autism and was drugged and brutalised in order to get me under control. I've read my social services file and even the paediatrician advised my foster mother to see to it that I was forced to comply with things, so she took to abusing and torturing me.

Nice that people would want to deal with children this way 40 years later. Or do they just mean the odd crack round the ear?

pasteloblong · 05/02/2024 11:46

www.sciencealert.com/study-of-6000-scans-reveals-brain-wide-patterns-linked-to-adhd-symptoms www.sciencealert.com/study-of-6000-scans-reveals-brain-wide-patterns-linked-to-adhd-symptoms]]]]

And ADHD isn't caused by bad parenting, food additives, vaccines, sugar, single parents or poverty.

Same for autism.

Elspyth · 05/02/2024 11:54

I think the modern world is completely overwhelming so children that previously could mask their behaviours now can't.
My children's experience is so different to mine. Starting with all the measuring and pressure around SATS at primary school. Topics being pushed to an earlier and earlier age so if it takes longer to learn something (e.g. handwriting, maths whatever) the child just gets behind and can't catch up.
Massive schools, big classes. Less budget and staff to provide additional support.
Not to mention the pace of life more generally (phones, emails, WhatsApp, Snapchat, insta, texting, consoles etc etc).

I don't know what the answer is, I think smaller classes and less in the curriculum might help....

howlongtilsummer · 05/02/2024 11:56

This thread on twitter/x gives an insight into the difficulties of accessing help.

As to what's changed in recent years? Some guesses are more awareness, increased rigidity and pressure in school environment and expectations, lockdown (both for kids that thrived in lockdown and kids that didn't), impact of covid infections on children.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 12:11

I have 2 children with SEN and come from a professional background.

My LA won't employ me in their SEND team as a caseworker, even though I can do the job with my eyes closed because I won't fit the mould of wanting to deny appropriate educations.

So much money is wasted denying education and fighting tribunals that are unwinnable. This is in both Labour and Tory run authorities.

The whole system needs changing.

https://disabledchildrenspartnership.org.uk/news/wasting-money-wasting-potential-our-new-report/#:~:text=%C2%A359.8mn%20of%20public,13.6mn%20to%20the%20courts.

Extract :

Among its key findings, the report found that:

  • 11,052 SEND tribunals were registered in England in 2021-22, up 29% on the previous year – meaning one SEND tribunal was registered for every six new EHCPs that were issued.
  • 96% of SEND tribunal hearings were won by parents, carers and young people in 2021-22.
  • £59.8mn of public money was wasted on lost SEND tribunals in 2021-22 – costs of £46.2mn to local authorities and £13.6mn to the courts.
  • 9,960 places in SEN units in mainstream schools could be funded each year with the money wasted on lost SEND tribunals.
  • Nearly 3,500 disputed EHCP cases were withdrawn or conceded before they got to tribunal hearing in 2021-22. If public sector staff spend as much time preparing for appeals that are registered but not heard, PBE estimates that total public sector spending on SEND tribunals in 2021-22 could be as high as £80mn.

https://disabledchildrenspartnership.org.uk/news/wasting-money-wasting-potential-our-new-report#:~:text=%C2%A359.8mn%20of%20public,13.6mn%20to%20the%20courts.

howlongtilsummer · 05/02/2024 12:16

howlongtilsummer · 05/02/2024 11:56

This thread on twitter/x gives an insight into the difficulties of accessing help.

As to what's changed in recent years? Some guesses are more awareness, increased rigidity and pressure in school environment and expectations, lockdown (both for kids that thrived in lockdown and kids that didn't), impact of covid infections on children.

Sorry thread

x.com/socialisthb/status/1754088082834362436?s=46&t=G9BWOZlYGPa1_pR7aKkbHQ

yellowonion · 05/02/2024 12:20

One reason why there are more children/people today with SEND is that more children survive being born very early. Children born in the 22nd week etc did not survive decades ago, but now some do and there are few of them where there are no consequences of that. Even children born not too much earlier than ideal are often affected.

Chylka · 05/02/2024 12:20

Another reason the bill is so big is that the state has failed to invest properly in special schools, so there is a massive shortage of places, that then gets outsourced to private special school providers who by and large charge about 3 times the costs of a maintained special school. Some joined up thinking is really needed.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 12:27

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 12:11

I have 2 children with SEN and come from a professional background.

My LA won't employ me in their SEND team as a caseworker, even though I can do the job with my eyes closed because I won't fit the mould of wanting to deny appropriate educations.

So much money is wasted denying education and fighting tribunals that are unwinnable. This is in both Labour and Tory run authorities.

The whole system needs changing.

https://disabledchildrenspartnership.org.uk/news/wasting-money-wasting-potential-our-new-report/#:~:text=%C2%A359.8mn%20of%20public,13.6mn%20to%20the%20courts.

Extract :

Among its key findings, the report found that:

  • 11,052 SEND tribunals were registered in England in 2021-22, up 29% on the previous year – meaning one SEND tribunal was registered for every six new EHCPs that were issued.
  • 96% of SEND tribunal hearings were won by parents, carers and young people in 2021-22.
  • £59.8mn of public money was wasted on lost SEND tribunals in 2021-22 – costs of £46.2mn to local authorities and £13.6mn to the courts.
  • 9,960 places in SEN units in mainstream schools could be funded each year with the money wasted on lost SEND tribunals.
  • Nearly 3,500 disputed EHCP cases were withdrawn or conceded before they got to tribunal hearing in 2021-22. If public sector staff spend as much time preparing for appeals that are registered but not heard, PBE estimates that total public sector spending on SEND tribunals in 2021-22 could be as high as £80mn.

I understand where you’re coming from but 9,000 is less than a drop in the ocean. There are now around 600,000 children with EHCPS and many more with lower level needs.

Woozywoozer · 05/02/2024 12:29

I don't think there are more SEN kids now. I think we are just better at recognising it and recognising that these children need support.

I'm waiting on an ADHD assessment. Which means I had ADHD back in the 90s when I was at school. It's just that they didn't have the knowledge and information to see that.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 12:32

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 12:27

I understand where you’re coming from but 9,000 is less than a drop in the ocean. There are now around 600,000 children with EHCPS and many more with lower level needs.

Any wasted public money on defending indefensible claims is a travesty.

The fact that it doesn't cover the cost of every child who needs an EHCP is neither here nor there.

A system that wastes money on legal fees and systems that deny children their rightful education stinks.

The problem is that there is NO RECOURSE for these wasteful LAs. They should be answerable to disabled children in the same way that failing schools are.

x2boys · 05/02/2024 12:34

Spendonsend · 05/02/2024 07:52

Well disabled children didnt have a right to education until the 70s and the warnock report was late 70s which lead to more inclusive legislation in the early 80s. Since 1997, 120 special schools have closed. so some of the older counsellors might have seen very little sen and assumed it didnt it exist.

I think one issue is austerity. There is a focus on schools which have been stripped bare in staffing levels, but the support around them has vanished too. Try getting timely speech and language therapy. We used to get children starting school and their notes would say they had weekly salt for 6 months and had been discharged as they had improved. We now get children who are on a waiting list - they might get to the top of the list by year 2 and then its an assessment and a TA delivers any recommendations and the salt comes back to review progress next year.

What was it like in the 80,s ? I ask because as a,15" year old i had work experience in a day centre for children with disabilities there . was One family who had four boys all of whom were profoundly disabled (I assume there wss a,genetic issue)they didn't seem to access any kind of education and just attended the day center which wss a charity run place with their mum.
I'm now the parent of a child with similar needs who has always gone to.a special school.

Spendonsend · 05/02/2024 12:44

x2boys · 05/02/2024 12:34

What was it like in the 80,s ? I ask because as a,15" year old i had work experience in a day centre for children with disabilities there . was One family who had four boys all of whom were profoundly disabled (I assume there wss a,genetic issue)they didn't seem to access any kind of education and just attended the day center which wss a charity run place with their mum.
I'm now the parent of a child with similar needs who has always gone to.a special school.

I was only a child in the 80s. My understanding is there was a move to inclusion because at that time pupils could be in special schools for things like asthma and minor physical impairments. But i think the profoundly disabled did just get care.

The head of the special school my godson is at (profoundly disabled) was a pioneer in educating the profoundly disabled. He said when he first started it was just care and people were against him teaching reading as it was, in their view, pointless He now has non verbal pupils communicating with different methods and some can read.

BertieBotts · 05/02/2024 12:46

It is easy to get angry, and I think that is a totally natural and fair response but actually taking the statements at face value and pushing back on them in a realistic and questioning way is helpful, I think.

I think people have no idea. Imagine the privilege that you have to have in order to get into that position. You know that these councillors have no direct experience of SEN. You know what the general public opinion is on SEN provision (just look at some of the replies on this thread).

If you are looking at making changes, justifying spending etc then these are really important conversations to have - I honestly believe the costs of underfunding these resources will have such a gigantic and far-reaching ripple effect. It is imperative that people understand and do not dismiss responses as being borne of irrationality, anger at not getting their own way etc.

For example, Cllr. Hammersley assumes that institutions "had better ways of dealing with children" - I don't know if this is a deliberate effort to shut down conversation, whether he thinks out of sight out of mind is fine, or whether he genuinely believes that disabled and ND children were having a lovely time living their best lives in institutions (!)

There are countries now in the world where children with mild LD are institutionalised. There are adults with living memory of going to these schools - it's not difficult to find the info. If people genuinely don't know, show them.

Also, I am fairly sure that institutional care is a lot more expensive than whatever he is objecting to anyway. He seems to be basing this "let's see the root of the need" on the idea that the "need" has expanded unreasonably (so he means, let's see the root of the expansion). It DOES seem like the spending has gone up from the figures he quoted - no idea if this is taken out of context - but looking at why costs have gone up and what costs have gone up would probably be useful.

Mr. Minns explains (Cllr. Hammersley seemed to miss this) that the need actually has not increased - the need is actually currently lower than stated in the Warnock report which is 45 years old. He's talking about the expansion of a need and looking at why needs have expanded so much, suggesting that we could stop it expanding and therefore stop costs going up,

Cllr. Morgan suggests that many children being diagnosed with ADHD "are just badly behaved" - but does he know that one of the most effective and, incidentally, underfunded, treatment options for ADHD is parent training - parenting classes, giving parents more effective (which BTW doesn't mean harsher) discipline techniques. In fact you could probably fund this for everyone who wants it, since it causes no harm to children who don't have ADHD, and only refer on the children whose parents find that it is not effective enough. Indeed, parents who are already proactive about their children's needs are frequently exasperated to be offered a parenting class at the end of a years-long waiting list which contains things they have frequently already tried. Why not offer that as a first resort, that ought to screen out "children who are just badly behaved" and maybe also offer something useful to the children who are not (even if ultimately they need other supports as well).

I have to go and pick up DS2 but I will watch the rest and respond in a bit.

It is very interesting the contrast between this meeting and the Warwickshire SEND FB page - you can see people commenting on there in frustration quite regularly. I wonder whether they will address this footage.

Harvestfestivalknickers · 05/02/2024 12:52

I would also encourage people who are surprised and disappointed by these councillors views to put themselves forward as candidates. Having been involved in local elections, I was saddened by the overall quality of candidates and voter apathy. One of the most impressive candidates won by a landslide drawing out a huge voter turn out. We need better representation.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 12:55

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 12:32

Any wasted public money on defending indefensible claims is a travesty.

The fact that it doesn't cover the cost of every child who needs an EHCP is neither here nor there.

A system that wastes money on legal fees and systems that deny children their rightful education stinks.

The problem is that there is NO RECOURSE for these wasteful LAs. They should be answerable to disabled children in the same way that failing schools are.

Don’t get me wrong the money should absolutely be recouped and spent as you say.

But the issue is FAR bigger than just saying recovering wastage would solve it.

The sums of money needed to put this right are unimaginably enormous, and they just aren’t there. It’s the story of every public service in the U.K.

JemimaTiggywinkles · 05/02/2024 13:06

There is definitely better recognition and less stigma than there used to be. Thank goodness - it is better for everyone if children's needs are met in school. Ideally there would also be sufficient provision for children who need to be in special schools, but that feels like a pipe dream right now.

The lack of funding does need to be properly addressed as well, and government have been crap. They say councils have to fund EHCPs but keep cutting their budgets. Eventually the council do not have enough money to pay for all of the things they want to / should pay for so they have to start querying to what extent requests are absolutely necessary.

To be frank, there are definitely cases of parents paying for a private assessment from a particular doctor because they know that doctor is more likely than most to give the diagnosis. I have first hand experience of parents admitting this in a meeting.

DarlingClementine85 · 05/02/2024 13:20

My child is under the SEN team at school but I'm not convinced he needs to be. I wonder if schools are more keen to put kids on the register now, and it encompasses children who would not have been diagnosed in past years (or called daydreamy / disruptive / badly behaved).

Regarding classroom behaviour, kids copy each other. If there are a couple of disruptive kids who might have been in a specialist school before but are now in mainstream, kids will copy them. I know mine does, he thinks it's fun to act up. I know because he doesn't behave that way when those kids aren't in class. So, combine a few genuinely special needs kids in the classroom with kids like mine who are "borderline" but like to copy disruptive behaviour, and suddenly the class is tipped towards low level disruption.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 13:37

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 12:55

Don’t get me wrong the money should absolutely be recouped and spent as you say.

But the issue is FAR bigger than just saying recovering wastage would solve it.

The sums of money needed to put this right are unimaginably enormous, and they just aren’t there. It’s the story of every public service in the U.K.

So what's your suggestion. Kick educating SEN kids into the long grass?

How forward thinking of you. Rather than having children educated in a way that will help them succeed as adults, you'll have more in adult social care or worse.

That'll save some money!!!!

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 13:39

@DarlingClementine85 do you mind if I ask what behaviours they’re saying he needs to be on the register for? I’ve noticed a deterioration in behaviour in my 4 year old since starting school, and a number of those behaviours I can see as her mother have been directly copied rather than happening organically. When she’s been away from school for a few days she’s a different child.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 13:41

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 13:37

So what's your suggestion. Kick educating SEN kids into the long grass?

How forward thinking of you. Rather than having children educated in a way that will help them succeed as adults, you'll have more in adult social care or worse.

That'll save some money!!!!

Whats your suggestion for funding it? Or do you think everyone who works in SEN should work for free?

Morph22010 · 05/02/2024 13:48

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 13:39

@DarlingClementine85 do you mind if I ask what behaviours they’re saying he needs to be on the register for? I’ve noticed a deterioration in behaviour in my 4 year old since starting school, and a number of those behaviours I can see as her mother have been directly copied rather than happening organically. When she’s been away from school for a few days she’s a different child.

you do need to bear in mind with this thst if your child does have sen then school can be very over whelming due to noise/ busyness etc. if that was the case her behaviour could be linked to this rather than simply copying other children and would explain why she’s better when off school.

lifeturnsonadime · 05/02/2024 13:49

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 05/02/2024 13:41

Whats your suggestion for funding it? Or do you think everyone who works in SEN should work for free?

The whole of education needs refunding, waste needs to end but more central government funding is required, whether that be by increased taxation so be it. Of course no one should work for free.

Do you think that children with additional needs should NOT receive an appropriate education for their age and aptitude? How charming.

BertieBotts · 05/02/2024 13:52

We really need to somehow prepare ourselves for the impact this level of special needs will have on the workforce in 10+ years.

But that's literally the point of funding SEN services! Ensuring that children with SEN can access education and effective parenting and learn skills which allow them to function in a world set up for NT people - this all helps them actually contribute to and engage in society/the workforce, later on in life.

Children with unsupported SEN turn into adults with few qualifications, with mental health problems, often struggle to engage in society, they may become involved in crime (through exploitation or simply because they see no "legitimate" path to work), they are more likely to be reliant on benefits.