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To be so angry that people like this are in charge of SEND budgets

472 replies

Dalmatron · 04/02/2024 23:38

Has anyone seen the thread on twitter/X about the Warwickshire Councillors at the scrutiny panel for SEND spending?

I am so angry!

Some quotes:
(Talking about institutions) "They had better ways of dealing with them at that time. Let's go back to those ways"
"I don't know what the fix is, I just look back at years gone by those people by whatever means, it was right at the time".
"Is it something in the water?"
"Families are swapping tips to get diagnosed"
"Why are there so many people jumping out with these needs? Where were they when I was at school?"
"Why do so many people have this badge of SEND and special needs?"
"To stop this spend fix the problem at source"
"the plea of a Mother saying Little Willy has ADHD when Little Willy is just really badly behaved & needs some form of strict correction"

How can people like this be in these positions? Why has nothing been done to remove them or apologise? I felt sick watching these clips.

Warwickshire Council thread

https://twitter.com/ElissaNoves/status/1753470720569385023?t=0kxU1GYJe35FgkzxzjTuyA&s=19

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
Spendonsend · 08/02/2024 20:43

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 20:13

It’s not to be sniffed at and I didn’t say it should be thrown away. Just disputing that it’s a ‘large chunk’ of the total 100%, or that it would make any meaningful dent.

I was just trying to point out that if you compare 100 million to the entire education budget its sounds so small an amount as to dissapear like o.o something % but compared to the high needs block its actually noticeable. 1 is a whole number.

And 100 million would make a meaningful dent in providing education for the 14,000 who end up in tribunal. Its not as if every child with SEN goes to tribunal.

Grandmasswag · 08/02/2024 20:47

BertieBotts · 08/02/2024 20:27

It doesn't need to be queried "why" there is a rise though because you can't ask "why" before you have asked whether there IS even a rise, and this is actually already known. Whatever people's personal experience with SEN children over time or anything else.

I know I keep banging on about the Warnock report but you can quite freely find it online and it was a highly respected study at the time and was the basis for the current Education Act/Children and Families Act.

It's also old enough (late 1970s) that it fits into this idea people had of there "not being so many" children in need of support in the past.

Interestingly they themselves had this to say about causes:

First, we have not felt it part of our business to go deeply into the factors which may lead to educational handicap. We are fully aware that many children with educational difficulties may suffer from familial or wider social deficiencies. While for most children their family life enhances their development, others show educational difficulties because they do not obtain from their families or their social circumstances the quality of stimulation or the sense of stability which is necessary for proper educational progress. But regardless of the cause of such children’s problems, familial or social, unless part of their educational provision is designed to compensate for the deprivation they have suffered, they will be unable to benefit from education in the ordinary sense. One cannot always keep these different strands apart.

They actually make it clear several times in the report that pupils with greater educational need won't necessarily have any kind of medical or diagnosable condition, sometimes the need is just due to aspects of the child's life which are outside their control e.g. poverty, a chaotic home life, English as a second language etc. And that they are including all of these things under this umbrella. So the idea about "people with SENs" (meaning presumably diagnosable conditions) is not actually what it referred to originally or in this context.

In terms of the extent there is a lot of discussion on page 38 if you want to look for yourself, but this is a good summary:

The evidence of the Isle of Wight survey, the inner London survey, the study of the infants’ school and the National Child Development Study broadly suggests, therefore, that at any one time about one child in six is likely to require some form of special educational provision. This is not of course an exact figure. It will vary from area to area according to local circumstances and will be influenced particularly by housing and other social factors and the character of individual schools, including their location, buildings, organisation and staffing, the effectiveness of their teachers and their approach to discipline. All these may affect the incidence of special educational need, especially in the realm of behaviour. Nevertheless the figure of one in six represents what we believe to be a reasonable judgement on the evidence and, indeed, is in line with the estimates of the number of children who might be expected to require special education which were given in 1946 and to which we referred in the last chapter.

Some other figures from that chapter are that in 1976/77 in England and Wales, 1.8% of pupils were in special schools, and around 4.7% spent at least some time in special classrooms set up in about 40% of mainstream schools for children who had "difficulties in learning, or problems of an emotional or behavioural nature, or both"

...we estimate that up to one child in five is likely to require special educational provision at some point during his school career. This means that a teacher of a mixed ability class of 30 children even in an ordinary school should be aware that possibly as many as six of them may require some form of special educational provision at some time during their school life and about four or five of them may require special educational provision at any given time. Again, we should stress that these figures will vary from class to class, school to school and area to area. The figures will however be an essential guide for planning purposes and we recommend that the planning of services for children and young people should be based on the assumption that about one in six children at any time and up to one in five children at some time during their school career will require some form of special educational provision.

(In that last quote, the bolding was italics in the report.)

So - 1977 figures, 6.5% of pupils spending at least some time in a special school/special classroom, 1/6 - 1/5 (16-20%) depending on how you count, needing SEN support. Backed up by 1946 estimates which were similar.

2024 figures, 4.3% with an EHCP, 17.3% needing support.

Where is this rise? I am not seeing any rise. The numbers are totally static, maybe a bit lower than they should be. When was the time where children didn't need any extra support in schools? It was recognised in the 1970s. It was recognised apparently in the 1940s.

The only possible way that there could have been a rise is that at some point during the last 50 years, we have stopped supporting children at school and now we are catching up to where we used to be.

As for why posters are noticing an increase in pupils with certain types of learning disability over others, I don't know how to explain that if indeed the overall numbers have stayed the same. I wonder if this is more due to changes in provision with special schools closing and most schools no longer having special education classrooms.

It’s all a bit puzzling. The only thing I can think is that the last labour government’s initiatives on early years and (sorry to keep banging on about it) sure start maybe made noticeable improvements? So staff that started their careers or worked a large part of their careers pre austerity were used to a dip in numbers SEN and have seen what seem like a large fairly sudden rise as childhood/family deprivation and all that accompanies it has risen again. I mean literally everyone who works in schools and early years is saying the same so there must be something in it. Agree that it’s not the job of local councillors to debate. It’s is unfortunately their job to assign non existent funding though so you can see how the situation has arisen that they feel the need to discuss it.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 20:51

@BertieBotts was he including children who would’ve been housed in the institutions back then as well? Or just those in the classrooms of normal schools?

Luddite26 · 08/02/2024 21:04

BertieBotts · 08/02/2024 20:27

It doesn't need to be queried "why" there is a rise though because you can't ask "why" before you have asked whether there IS even a rise, and this is actually already known. Whatever people's personal experience with SEN children over time or anything else.

I know I keep banging on about the Warnock report but you can quite freely find it online and it was a highly respected study at the time and was the basis for the current Education Act/Children and Families Act.

It's also old enough (late 1970s) that it fits into this idea people had of there "not being so many" children in need of support in the past.

Interestingly they themselves had this to say about causes:

First, we have not felt it part of our business to go deeply into the factors which may lead to educational handicap. We are fully aware that many children with educational difficulties may suffer from familial or wider social deficiencies. While for most children their family life enhances their development, others show educational difficulties because they do not obtain from their families or their social circumstances the quality of stimulation or the sense of stability which is necessary for proper educational progress. But regardless of the cause of such children’s problems, familial or social, unless part of their educational provision is designed to compensate for the deprivation they have suffered, they will be unable to benefit from education in the ordinary sense. One cannot always keep these different strands apart.

They actually make it clear several times in the report that pupils with greater educational need won't necessarily have any kind of medical or diagnosable condition, sometimes the need is just due to aspects of the child's life which are outside their control e.g. poverty, a chaotic home life, English as a second language etc. And that they are including all of these things under this umbrella. So the idea about "people with SENs" (meaning presumably diagnosable conditions) is not actually what it referred to originally or in this context.

In terms of the extent there is a lot of discussion on page 38 if you want to look for yourself, but this is a good summary:

The evidence of the Isle of Wight survey, the inner London survey, the study of the infants’ school and the National Child Development Study broadly suggests, therefore, that at any one time about one child in six is likely to require some form of special educational provision. This is not of course an exact figure. It will vary from area to area according to local circumstances and will be influenced particularly by housing and other social factors and the character of individual schools, including their location, buildings, organisation and staffing, the effectiveness of their teachers and their approach to discipline. All these may affect the incidence of special educational need, especially in the realm of behaviour. Nevertheless the figure of one in six represents what we believe to be a reasonable judgement on the evidence and, indeed, is in line with the estimates of the number of children who might be expected to require special education which were given in 1946 and to which we referred in the last chapter.

Some other figures from that chapter are that in 1976/77 in England and Wales, 1.8% of pupils were in special schools, and around 4.7% spent at least some time in special classrooms set up in about 40% of mainstream schools for children who had "difficulties in learning, or problems of an emotional or behavioural nature, or both"

...we estimate that up to one child in five is likely to require special educational provision at some point during his school career. This means that a teacher of a mixed ability class of 30 children even in an ordinary school should be aware that possibly as many as six of them may require some form of special educational provision at some time during their school life and about four or five of them may require special educational provision at any given time. Again, we should stress that these figures will vary from class to class, school to school and area to area. The figures will however be an essential guide for planning purposes and we recommend that the planning of services for children and young people should be based on the assumption that about one in six children at any time and up to one in five children at some time during their school career will require some form of special educational provision.

(In that last quote, the bolding was italics in the report.)

So - 1977 figures, 6.5% of pupils spending at least some time in a special school/special classroom, 1/6 - 1/5 (16-20%) depending on how you count, needing SEN support. Backed up by 1946 estimates which were similar.

2024 figures, 4.3% with an EHCP, 17.3% needing support.

Where is this rise? I am not seeing any rise. The numbers are totally static, maybe a bit lower than they should be. When was the time where children didn't need any extra support in schools? It was recognised in the 1970s. It was recognised apparently in the 1940s.

The only possible way that there could have been a rise is that at some point during the last 50 years, we have stopped supporting children at school and now we are catching up to where we used to be.

As for why posters are noticing an increase in pupils with certain types of learning disability over others, I don't know how to explain that if indeed the overall numbers have stayed the same. I wonder if this is more due to changes in provision with special schools closing and most schools no longer having special education classrooms.

Thankyou.

Phineyj · 08/02/2024 21:08

Where I grew up, on the Kent/Surrey border, there was a nearby boarding school for children with learning and physical disabilities. My friend's dad was a teacher there and some of the students were in my Guide pack.

I looked it up last night having read this thread. It educates just over 100 children across the whole age range from 4 to 19. It sounds like a wonderful school but 100 places seems very few indeed for the whole of Kent (and the website makes it clear they admit from other LAs too).

I found @BertieBotts's extracts from the Warnock Report really interesting.

I'm finding this hard to articulate but maybe a society gets the SEN it recognises. In different ages/cultures, different children don't "fit" what's offered.

I certainly think my 11 year old would be better suited to the practical work based education systems you get in some Continental countries.

Luddite26 · 08/02/2024 21:11

And when I look back on my 70s/80s education I can remember the abuse that these kids received; general acceptance to call them 'rems', humiliation for having a stammer or for being unable to read out loud or even read at all. Bags of nerves but used to the attacks. The physical abuse from teachers involving board rubbers or metre rulers inflicted on kids who were struggling it makes me still so angry.

HomerGlumplich · 08/02/2024 21:48

Phineyj · 08/02/2024 21:08

Where I grew up, on the Kent/Surrey border, there was a nearby boarding school for children with learning and physical disabilities. My friend's dad was a teacher there and some of the students were in my Guide pack.

I looked it up last night having read this thread. It educates just over 100 children across the whole age range from 4 to 19. It sounds like a wonderful school but 100 places seems very few indeed for the whole of Kent (and the website makes it clear they admit from other LAs too).

I found @BertieBotts's extracts from the Warnock Report really interesting.

I'm finding this hard to articulate but maybe a society gets the SEN it recognises. In different ages/cultures, different children don't "fit" what's offered.

I certainly think my 11 year old would be better suited to the practical work based education systems you get in some Continental countries.

Agree with this!

Saw this post on twitter that's worth repeating here:

"SEN is a policy decision, not an innate way of being.

It’s defined by the gap between the needs of a child & what their school can typically provide.

Are there more children with SEN, or is the provision gap widening due to an increasingly exclusive education system?"

Grandmasswag · 08/02/2024 22:06

Sen is a policy decision not an innate way of being. What an interesting concept. I agree it’s a very one size fits all system nowadays. And the number of children who fall apart at secondary level should be telling us something. When I think back to how I was as a child starting at primary in the 90s they made small accommodations for me that would be out of the question in most schools now. I had anxiety and sensory issues about certain aspects of school that I couldn’t cope with but I really don’t think I’m ND. Maybe it would be different if no accommodations had been made because I would have probably have kicked up hell about going to school, rather than gradually transition and eventually learned to cope/grow put of the behaviour. It’s seems completely nuts that in some cases you need to go through the EHCP process often to get schools to make very small accommodations that could make the difference between a child coping at school and not. That said there are lots of good primary’s that do allow for more individual needs regardless of EHCPs. Dcs school is pretty good. Less likely for secondary though.

Grandmasswag · 08/02/2024 22:27

Are there more children with SEN, or is the provision gap widening due to an increasingly exclusive education system?"

But again it goes back to the difference between high functioning as in could cope within an education setting with relatively small adjustments and really high needs which clearly there is not enough provision for either. I can’t help but feel that discussions online are definitely dominated by the high functioning end and swayed towards the idea of ND just being a difference that could be embraced. All reports from people on the ground are the same. That very high needs are increasing.

BertieBotts · 08/02/2024 23:00

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 20:51

@BertieBotts was he including children who would’ve been housed in the institutions back then as well? Or just those in the classrooms of normal schools?

The percentages for special schools and special classrooms were taken from the school population. The numbers for overall numbers were taken from the population of all children including those in institutions.

I don't know if a special school (boarding) counts as an institution. That isn't stated at least in the part of the report I read.

BertieBotts · 08/02/2024 23:11

I loved sure start and I think it did brilliant work but I don't think it did actually reduce numbers of SEN in relation to schools statistically. The problem with sure start is the work it was doing was much too subtle and long term to have a clear impact on anything much (except for individual families) - that is a big part of why it was defunded. Also the same kind of attitudes as you see here, the "too many middle class parents are using it!" moral panic and the "why are you giving nice things to that section of our community?" Which is oddly opposite but also seemed to be a problem for certain people.

If the numbers dropped in the preceding years and are now higher again then the simplest explanation is that they were never officially accommodated so they never counted in any statistics and at the point that numbers started to be recorded, they were missing a huge amount of pupils. We are now catching up to the amount that we should have been recording decades ago and the predictions of this report and possibly one from 1946 are being proven right.

Provision dropping I mean more like if there were previously three special schools in an area and there is now one, then staff at that one special school and the surrounding mainstream schools are going to notice an increase in the demand for SEN services because it's no longer being met. It could be more caseloads increasing than an increase in absolute numbers. But that's just a guess because I don't know.

imip · 09/02/2024 05:35

There is also a rise in EHCPs because the support that should be offered at SEN support just isn’t. Why? Because there isn’t enough money. We also have a load of children out of school because school cannot meet there needs. These children are also being failed by social care who cannot get enough workers/carers.

There is not enough specialist placements, one special school can be drastically different from another. I am a fan of resources provisions and think they are good solutions, but many don’t really offer the appropriate support (eg, insist on child being 100% in class. They remain inflexible, when that is not the intention of the system.

the changes in 2014, children and families and and Sen code of practice are great and amazing. In theory the system is world class. It it is not funded (just like the NHS, just like social care). However because we are dealing with children, they will continue to cost the state in the future with high benefits, housing, mental health costs, costly specialist placements and fewer people paying tax. Look at the criminal justice system and the high number of autistic people in prisons - surely if we had intervened earlier - genuine early intervention- we could have prevented a large proportion of this?

Bumpitybumper · 09/02/2024 06:25

Pamplem0000u5553 · 08/02/2024 17:06

That’s ludicrous. You don’t need a diagnosis to get extra time in exams and a diagnosis is based on masses of evidence to even get on the diagnosis path let alone walk away with one. Swaping tips would be completely fruitless.

No, of course you don't officially 'need' a diagnosis to get special access arrangements in exams but the school is much more likely to take you seriously if you do have a diagnosis.

You don't need masses of evidence to get on the diagnosis pathway if you pay to go privately. I also know for a fact that a parent I know got their child on the pathway despite the school having no concerns whatsoever. It was completely based on the parent's account of what the child was like at home. The parent was very well versed in the type of 'evidence' they would be looking for as she already had two children with a diagnosis. I'm not saying her child does or doesn't have SEN but it simply isn't true that you always need 'masses of evidence' or that the system is ungameable.

Pamplem0000u5553 · 09/02/2024 07:26

It’s in a schools best interest for its pupils to get their best results. They don’t need much arm twisting for extra time. I know hoards that had it with my daughter who most definitely didn’t have any diagnosis.

I can only go by the NHS diagnosis system which is very robust. We should be focusing on aiming to reduce the wait time not undermining the diagnoses of those that have needed to go private.

imip · 09/02/2024 09:27

It is harder to get access arrangements for GCSE and a-levels as many have to be made via requesting from JCQ (or is it JQC?). I have spent a long time pouring over their 100s of pages of access arrangements!

Many also rely on normal ways of working and this needs to be proven. That’s why you might feel you see it a lot, you can’t pull out extra time last minute in a GCSE, really needs to be a normal way of working.

I think it is dangerous to speculate on why others get extra time - they are entitled to privacy and we shouldn’t really know.

greengreengrass25 · 09/02/2024 10:31

Yes, they've tightened it up

Imfedup1989 · 10/02/2024 12:00

Bumpitybumper · 09/02/2024 06:25

No, of course you don't officially 'need' a diagnosis to get special access arrangements in exams but the school is much more likely to take you seriously if you do have a diagnosis.

You don't need masses of evidence to get on the diagnosis pathway if you pay to go privately. I also know for a fact that a parent I know got their child on the pathway despite the school having no concerns whatsoever. It was completely based on the parent's account of what the child was like at home. The parent was very well versed in the type of 'evidence' they would be looking for as she already had two children with a diagnosis. I'm not saying her child does or doesn't have SEN but it simply isn't true that you always need 'masses of evidence' or that the system is ungameable.

I don't know about private but if that is happing and I'm sure it is in a very small minority then it needs looking into.
When it comes to going on the NHS NDC pathway it is extremely difficult to even get excepted on there.
Then wait 2 years+ to actually see anybody and then it's a painful slow process of appointment discussing the difficulties your child has, then paperwork being sent out to schools and all professionals that have any dealings with your child.
Then 3 months later another appointment to discuss that, then 3 months later an ADOS assessment,S&L assessments.
Then if your lucky 3 months later they will Dx (or not).
And either way you are sent on your merry way with basically a leaflet and no aftercare what so ever!

drspouse · 23/08/2024 17:34

Every single word of that rang millions of bells with us.
I remember taking my two (older one has ADHD, younger one was just quite little) to a Christmas service when they were socially distanced and only the choir could sing. We took colouring, puzzles, and quiet games. They were superstars but ran around madly afterwards. I was bursting with pride for how well they did.
I was accused on here of teaching them to mask and being cruel.

BertieBotts · 24/08/2024 00:06

Well, I think it is mostly misinformed and missing the entire point. There are some interesting points especially around the seeking a diagnosis part.

I would like to elaborate/address some points directly but it is very late and I need to go to bed.

The example given by another poster of colouring, puzzles and games "teaching masking" is really not at all what my understanding of masking is, so I wouldn't worry about some mad MN comments, there are always bonkers people on here who believe all sorts of things, especially during lockdown it was absolutely crazy on here. They were probably angry at the covid rules rather than you.

drspouse · 24/08/2024 09:03

No, it was specifically the good behaviour at church that was called masking.

Porcuine20 · 24/08/2024 09:22

That’s quite shocking. People with those attitudes shouldn’t be in charge of SEN policy and spending. Curiosity about why children’s needs aren’t being met and what might help is good, but not in those biased and judgemental terms.
I think society in general and education have changed in ways that many neurodivergent people find hard to cope with. At my daughter’s primary there was so much group work, spoken discussion, team challenges, general loud stuff etc that she found stressful and felt excluded from, being autistic and situationally mute. Friends’ children who are dyslexic or have other learning difficulties massively struggled with the focus on maths and English to the exclusion of all else, and the constant assessment made them anxious and demoralised. They hardly did any art, drama, music, topic, practical skills, all the things these kids might have enjoyed excelling at. My dd is now at a private secondary where she’s encouraged to try new things but is enabled to learn in the ways that work best for her and she’s absolutely thriving (and now actually managing to speak in school).
We need people in charge with genuine curiosity and kindness and a desire to make education work for everyone.

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