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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be so angry that people like this are in charge of SEND budgets

472 replies

Dalmatron · 04/02/2024 23:38

Has anyone seen the thread on twitter/X about the Warwickshire Councillors at the scrutiny panel for SEND spending?

I am so angry!

Some quotes:
(Talking about institutions) "They had better ways of dealing with them at that time. Let's go back to those ways"
"I don't know what the fix is, I just look back at years gone by those people by whatever means, it was right at the time".
"Is it something in the water?"
"Families are swapping tips to get diagnosed"
"Why are there so many people jumping out with these needs? Where were they when I was at school?"
"Why do so many people have this badge of SEND and special needs?"
"To stop this spend fix the problem at source"
"the plea of a Mother saying Little Willy has ADHD when Little Willy is just really badly behaved & needs some form of strict correction"

How can people like this be in these positions? Why has nothing been done to remove them or apologise? I felt sick watching these clips.

Warwickshire Council thread

https://twitter.com/ElissaNoves/status/1753470720569385023?t=0kxU1GYJe35FgkzxzjTuyA&s=19

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 19:18

Awwww you're upset 😞 Friends, relatives and "widely accepted among professionals' isn't substantiating anything either. If we have no money then where will the money even come from to investigate thoroughly?!

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:19

I don’t really think you’re up to the debate with the constant childish remarks. But a public inquiry would cost around £100 million I think.

DrasticAction · 08/02/2024 19:21

In many respects they are correct because how a student is treated is down to the teacher and as we know very very few teachers properly understand what autism means and what it means to have dyslexia etc.
So a ta could be the most clued up person but they may struggle to use their tactics to help without the teachers support.

And many teaches don't understand what the ehcp process is or means and yes! They don't bloody read it.... They don't read it or understand it
So in these instances they are right.

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 19:21

So where would the £100 million come from if we're so skint and how would the country reinstate/bring in the services needed to help these shit parents? I'm debating fine which is why you're getting upset

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:28

I’m not upset.

£100 million is basically pocket change compared to the numbers we’re talking about for SEN, or social care, or anything else really.

Just to throw a few figures out there so you get the gist -

Ending nondoms - would raise £1.6billion
Private school VAT - would raise £1.6 billion
Unusable PPE - £4 billion

Looks massive, right? Here are a few actual running costs:

NHS - £180 billion a year
Education - £116 billion
Defence - £50 billion

So, £100 million is pocket change, but reforming an entire service isn’t.

Spendonsend · 08/02/2024 19:32

Is our GDP going down a lot then? Our funding on education has been around 4.5% of gdp recently. Its been a low of 3.9% and a high of 5.7% at one point. It isnt wildly out of kilter with the rest of europe. Bit less than average.

Phineyj · 08/02/2024 19:36

Local authorities are routinely breaking the law on SEN and spending millions doing so.

Does anyone actually think that's ok? Spending taxpayers' money actively preventing children getting an education?

What other laws shall we turn a blind eye to them breaking, or is it just ones that affect vulnerable groups that are fair game?

We need economic growth and a lot of new ideas. How on earth does giving up on educating some children help with that? What a waste of potential!

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 19:43

So, just to clarify before we continue, are you not in favour of ending nondom status, starting to charge VAT on private school fees (and going after those crafty buggers who try to pay up front if Labour do introduce it) or trying to get back any of the money for the unusable PPE? I think I'd also like to completely eliminate the CGT allowance while we are at it and have capital gains included in income tax as well. Probably reintroduce the LTA tax charge and reform pension death benefits and IHT as well, stop all this hoarding of generational wealth. What are your thoughts on raising money?

Also where are you sourcing your numbers as I've seen the estimated money raised from ending nondom status as anywhere between 2 and 4 billion, most estimates have been around 3.6bill I believe? You are also being dishonest about the PPE situation it cost DHSC around 9bill, the 4bill you are using is just for the unused PPE.

Drops in the ocean add up.

DrasticAction · 08/02/2024 19:46

@Phineyj

Whats frustrating is the changes and tweaks are so small usually and either teachers with no education in this or no will to learn can't accommodate the smallest changes that make massive difference to children's lives.

Spendonsend · 08/02/2024 19:50

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:28

I’m not upset.

£100 million is basically pocket change compared to the numbers we’re talking about for SEN, or social care, or anything else really.

Just to throw a few figures out there so you get the gist -

Ending nondoms - would raise £1.6billion
Private school VAT - would raise £1.6 billion
Unusable PPE - £4 billion

Looks massive, right? Here are a few actual running costs:

NHS - £180 billion a year
Education - £116 billion
Defence - £50 billion

So, £100 million is pocket change, but reforming an entire service isn’t.

I116 billion on education includes the student loan system and early years childcare.

Schools have about 60 billion.

The high beeds block is about 10 billion so actually 100 million seems a big chunk of high needs block funding to me.

DrasticAction · 08/02/2024 19:51

The whole lot is rotten and eaten from the inside.

We need mp to take action but unfortunately the parents I speak too say.. Oh my mp won't listen.... Fine maybe they don't but if lots of people complain about their child's treatment and story maybe someone somewhere will listen... Teachers must be taught sen!!

They must be shown and taught about the basics!!..

Senco must be if a certain level of education.

They must!!

Teachers must be told, they have to make adjustments by law! They are breaking the law!

There is currently absolutely no accountability.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:51

In favour of ending nondoms, not in favour of VAT, the PPE money - well you may as well be punching smoke, how would you get it back?

Of course drops add up, but I’ve shown that even if we recouped all wastage, ended nondoms and taxed private schools, we wouldn’t even raise enough to reform one public service. Not by a long way.

I can tell you’re rattled by the numbers but that was the aim. The state we are in is shocking. Labour have tonight pulled out of their green spending pledge because there’s no cash to fulfil it. I’m deeply disappointed but not surprised.

Phineyj · 08/02/2024 19:52

I am a teacher actually.

Most teachers (at least the ones I've met) do what they can but the training and guidance is a bit lacking, to say the least. As well as the time and resources. And one can never be sure what the Senior Leadership Team really think.

As I said earlier on this thread (at least I think it was this thread), making schools accountable for SEN results as well as those for disadvantaged kids, would be helpful.

What's measured, matters.

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 19:55

Can you answer all of my questions please? What are your thoughts about the other ways of generating money I've mentioned? I think it's quite telling that you are dead against the private school VAT, if it's such a small amount why are you bothered?

So you have rubbish numbers to "rattle" me. Rishi is that you?

SpudleyLass · 08/02/2024 19:55

Phineyj · 08/02/2024 19:36

Local authorities are routinely breaking the law on SEN and spending millions doing so.

Does anyone actually think that's ok? Spending taxpayers' money actively preventing children getting an education?

What other laws shall we turn a blind eye to them breaking, or is it just ones that affect vulnerable groups that are fair game?

We need economic growth and a lot of new ideas. How on earth does giving up on educating some children help with that? What a waste of potential!

Simply out, it doesn't help at all.

The solutions propose by LAs and some posters on here, actually exacerbate the issue.

I'm being told my child can't have the support she needs because it's too expensive and we don't have enough tax coming in - but by forcing so many of us SEN parents to stay home, we'll of course there isn't enough tax coming in !

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:56

Spendonsend · 08/02/2024 19:50

I116 billion on education includes the student loan system and early years childcare.

Schools have about 60 billion.

The high beeds block is about 10 billion so actually 100 million seems a big chunk of high needs block funding to me.

100 million is 1% of 10 billion. Would you call 1% a big chunk?

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 19:57

If someone said that once every a hundred days you would crash your car you would consider 1% a lot.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:59

Yes I would, but we’re not talking about frequency of car crashes are we?

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 20:02

So we agree that 1% can be actually a significant and relative number? So your instant dismissal that 1billion in 100billion is significant is probably not founded in good faith and you are just saying it to push your pov.

imip · 08/02/2024 20:03

@SpudleyLass I second SOSSEN for JR.

your can also follow the complaints process and appeal to the education ombudsman. I think this is very important. Also copy in the monitoring officer - that’s the legal person in the LA who should make sure the law is being followed.

https://www.lgo.org.uk/make-a-complaint/fact-sheets/education/education-other-than-at-school

The LGO oublished a great guide to LAs role re: children missing education. You will also have a children missing education office in your LA - bother them if you haven’t already. They should be friggin well paying attention to children of compulsory school age who are out of education.

https://www.lgo.org.uk/

https://www.lgo.org.uk/make-a-complaint/fact-sheets/education/education-other-than-at-school

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 20:04

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 20:02

So we agree that 1% can be actually a significant and relative number? So your instant dismissal that 1billion in 100billion is significant is probably not founded in good faith and you are just saying it to push your pov.

Edited

It wasn’t 1 billion in 100 billion, it was 100 million in 10 billion. And no, 1% is not a ‘large chunk’, literally nobody would say that was accurate terminology. I think you know this but are doing some verbal gymnastics to get out of it.

CapybaraParty · 08/02/2024 20:10

Are you going to answer my questions about how we will raise money in your world then and why you are so against VAT on private schools? I think I can guess the answer but wondering if you will actually admit it online.

Spendonsend · 08/02/2024 20:11

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 19:56

100 million is 1% of 10 billion. Would you call 1% a big chunk?

I think 1% is an amount not to be sniffed at. It a whole number.

I cant see its justifiable to just throw 1% away.

Pleasehelpimexhausted · 08/02/2024 20:13

It’s not to be sniffed at and I didn’t say it should be thrown away. Just disputing that it’s a ‘large chunk’ of the total 100%, or that it would make any meaningful dent.

BertieBotts · 08/02/2024 20:27

It doesn't need to be queried "why" there is a rise though because you can't ask "why" before you have asked whether there IS even a rise, and this is actually already known. Whatever people's personal experience with SEN children over time or anything else.

I know I keep banging on about the Warnock report but you can quite freely find it online and it was a highly respected study at the time and was the basis for the current Education Act/Children and Families Act.

It's also old enough (late 1970s) that it fits into this idea people had of there "not being so many" children in need of support in the past.

Interestingly they themselves had this to say about causes:

First, we have not felt it part of our business to go deeply into the factors which may lead to educational handicap. We are fully aware that many children with educational difficulties may suffer from familial or wider social deficiencies. While for most children their family life enhances their development, others show educational difficulties because they do not obtain from their families or their social circumstances the quality of stimulation or the sense of stability which is necessary for proper educational progress. But regardless of the cause of such children’s problems, familial or social, unless part of their educational provision is designed to compensate for the deprivation they have suffered, they will be unable to benefit from education in the ordinary sense. One cannot always keep these different strands apart.

They actually make it clear several times in the report that pupils with greater educational need won't necessarily have any kind of medical or diagnosable condition, sometimes the need is just due to aspects of the child's life which are outside their control e.g. poverty, a chaotic home life, English as a second language etc. And that they are including all of these things under this umbrella. So the idea about "people with SENs" (meaning presumably diagnosable conditions) is not actually what it referred to originally or in this context.

In terms of the extent there is a lot of discussion on page 38 if you want to look for yourself, but this is a good summary:

The evidence of the Isle of Wight survey, the inner London survey, the study of the infants’ school and the National Child Development Study broadly suggests, therefore, that at any one time about one child in six is likely to require some form of special educational provision. This is not of course an exact figure. It will vary from area to area according to local circumstances and will be influenced particularly by housing and other social factors and the character of individual schools, including their location, buildings, organisation and staffing, the effectiveness of their teachers and their approach to discipline. All these may affect the incidence of special educational need, especially in the realm of behaviour. Nevertheless the figure of one in six represents what we believe to be a reasonable judgement on the evidence and, indeed, is in line with the estimates of the number of children who might be expected to require special education which were given in 1946 and to which we referred in the last chapter.

Some other figures from that chapter are that in 1976/77 in England and Wales, 1.8% of pupils were in special schools, and around 4.7% spent at least some time in special classrooms set up in about 40% of mainstream schools for children who had "difficulties in learning, or problems of an emotional or behavioural nature, or both"

...we estimate that up to one child in five is likely to require special educational provision at some point during his school career. This means that a teacher of a mixed ability class of 30 children even in an ordinary school should be aware that possibly as many as six of them may require some form of special educational provision at some time during their school life and about four or five of them may require special educational provision at any given time. Again, we should stress that these figures will vary from class to class, school to school and area to area. The figures will however be an essential guide for planning purposes and we recommend that the planning of services for children and young people should be based on the assumption that about one in six children at any time and up to one in five children at some time during their school career will require some form of special educational provision.

(In that last quote, the bolding was italics in the report.)

So - 1977 figures, 6.5% of pupils spending at least some time in a special school/special classroom, 1/6 - 1/5 (16-20%) depending on how you count, needing SEN support. Backed up by 1946 estimates which were similar.

2024 figures, 4.3% with an EHCP, 17.3% needing support.

Where is this rise? I am not seeing any rise. The numbers are totally static, maybe a bit lower than they should be. When was the time where children didn't need any extra support in schools? It was recognised in the 1970s. It was recognised apparently in the 1940s.

The only possible way that there could have been a rise is that at some point during the last 50 years, we have stopped supporting children at school and now we are catching up to where we used to be.

As for why posters are noticing an increase in pupils with certain types of learning disability over others, I don't know how to explain that if indeed the overall numbers have stayed the same. I wonder if this is more due to changes in provision with special schools closing and most schools no longer having special education classrooms.

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