We can have a Tory government and Brexit or we can have the NHS. Which do you choose?

[verdantverdure]

YANBU I'm not a millionaire so I chose the NHS.

YABU I am a millionaire so I don't need the NHS and I choose Brexit and Tory government.

Just go and have a look at nursing the elderly and see if these nurses need a degree!? Of course they don’t. Some who use the high tech stuff might but quite a few don’t. I found the whole experience my mother received regarding nursing to be shocking. Does it need a degree to shove a catheter in when it’s not needed?

We cannot go back to 1948. I agree. We could go back to some charging for some services or ring fencing taxes. Or mixing insurance and tax. We could save nurses degree costs by accepting they don’t all need them.

Labour and NHS for me, please.

Labour and NHS for me too please!
l have worked for the NHS and because my mother is elderly I’ve been on the other side too recently, it’s getting worse without a doubt.

I’m a doctor. Nhs is broken. Public don’t realise it yet. It’s collapsing, it’s dangerous.

It worries me. One of my parents has a heart condition, and I’m worried that even if there’s the political will to fix it from a new government, that it will take a lot of time.

There appear to be several people choosing the dog shite.

Did you fail to understand that the COL energy payments were a government subsidy to the energy companies?

So what would Labour do? Oh I know, spend money they don’t have. We are so close to our income just repaying loans we have no wriggle room. Millions of people have higher mortgages and cannot find more for tax. Uni for dc costs more. Everything costs more. We either accept we make changes to the NHS or it’s the slow route to oblivion. I’d rather have a reduced nhs offering and do it well. Being wedded to an outdated system laughed at by everyone else is no good when we are all getting old with the young not earning enough for homes of their own, let alone huge tax hikes. Labour will not be able to do anything without howls of protest.

It’s easy for those who have enough to say they’ll pay more, but when people cannot afford a home, will they really want to pay higher taxes? I doubt it.

Plus we need to be able to pop off the planet if we wish - I don’t want to be kept alive by the nhs. From what I’ve seen it’s a living slow painful death. No thanks.

So what would Labour do? Oh I know, spend money they don’t have.
You seem to be confusing Labour with Liz Truss.

What? 🙄

This, I would go Tory - education, security and health as spending priorities. Cut the welfare state in half or more. No social care (we won't be using it we have a plan if it comes to that point). Education is under funded in our town yet the council is renovating leisure centres and planting trees!

You do know the Tories are in power now do you?

The NHS is finished. We need a new funding methodology. Why can’t we have the same system in lots and lots of European countries where healthcare is partly funded via insurance. They have excellent healthcare systems and do t have to pay through the nose like they do in America for it.

But any suggestion that we do something like this is immediately hurled out in disgust. I don’t get the drs that praise the NHS to the hilt then complain their don’t get paid as much as other counties. That’s because other countries have a health insurance system. You can’t want the current funding model and overseas drs salaries. It doesn’t work like that. It’s either / or instead.

In 2010 70% of Brits were satisfied with their NHS care, compared to 74% of Australians. So just behind Australia.

That figure for the NHS is now 29% and falling.

How could we have let that happen?

"The NHS is finished. We need a new funding methodology. Why can’t we have the same system in lots and lots of European countries where healthcare is partly funded via insurance."

Following figures come from Statistica

In 2022 UK public spending on healthcare per head of population was $4479 and private spending was $1013. That includes all the billions spent on shite PPE and useless Test and Trace.

In 2022 French public spending on healthcare per head of population was $5510. They spent slightly less than the UK on private healthcare.

Figures for Germany: $6929 per head, and $40 more a year per head on private healthcare.

Food for thought, no? (BTW - 2019 statistica survey shows French were less satisfied with their healthcare than Brits)

So who would you leave destitute in order to 'cut the welfare state in half'?

As I pointed out - the NHS had high rates of patient satisfaction in international comparisons in 2010 before the Conservatives got in and started their programme of trashing/privatising public services.

This is from the Nuffield Trust research from 2018:

"While data is limited, the NHS seems to be relatively efficient, with low administrative costs and high use of cheaper generic medicines. • The NHS appears to perform well in managing certain long-term illnesses, including diabetes. • Health care spending in the UK is slightly lower than the average in comparable countries, both in terms of the proportion of national income spent on health care and in terms of spending per person. • The UK has markedly fewer doctors and nurses than similar countries, relative to the size of its population, and fewer CT scanners and MRI machines."

The NHS doesn't do well on cancer, heart disease and stroke outcomes.

We also have poor public health and growing health inequality in the UK.

None of these things are beyond improving, if your first priority isn't working out how to increase possibilities for private profit in healthcare provision.

I am not against private companies or profits. Let’s face it, doctors going to Australia for double the money don’t give a fig either. No nhs there. We have dual standards. In 2010 I have no doubt the data was limited. The NHS was crap then too! Except Labour had paid GPs loads more and at the same time patients could not get appointments .After hours working disappeared . Great for them but poor for patients and they then raked in money from the Cons by running businesses and retiring at 55 with giant pension pots. At the moment productivity is woeful.

NHS of course as I am not a selfish git.

The NHS was crap then too!

It really wasn’t.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/insight-and-analysis/reports/understanding-new-labours-market-reforms-english-nhs

11 people waited 12 hrs or more in AE in 2009/2010 to be seen.

In 2023, it was 55k.

Productivity is poor due to lack of staff, high sickness rates (Stress) an ever older population, more complex medical needs inc obesity.

Anything relating to public services and social care from children to adults is imploding.

People generally do not realise how awful it is.

Even though we never might need such services it still costs us all that's what so many fail to comprehend l. It can no longer be considered fit for purpose like many services not just the NHS

The Tories under Thatcher did exactly the same but her greedy populist I'm alright Jack appeals to the masses. We are in a far worse state than ever she left the country in.

As a floating voter, I find this such an odd way to frame the question.

Clearly choosing who to vote for is nowhere near this simplistic.

Otherwise you could frame it as, you can have Kier Starmer who thinks some women have a penis, or you can have Sunak who actually understands reality.

If you pick one single issue, of course it is easy to make one party look unpalatable. It's probably unhelpful to encourage people to view politics in such a binary fashion.

What tax hike is this?